Wednesday, July 16, 2008
Who Polices The Policemen Who Police The Policemen?
A long time ago, Professional Standards and Discipline depts all over the country were wondering whether a certain PC David Copperfield was one of theirs, given that telling the truth is now regarded as a revolutionary act. 'Bobby Bobby' wonders whether PSD hasn't got a bit out of hand - and explains why that might be. As usual, send your stuff in via the email link at the top right of this page. No names, no pack drill.
It’s high time we all became very concerned about the time and money being spent on cops investigating cops.
I've never seen such unprecedented effort being used to proactively, covertly and overtly search for ways and means to find fault with police officers from within their own ranks and by their own colleagues.
Of course we need professional standards, and a department of proportionate officers - that goes without saying.
However, as we know, these standards come from training and development together with support and development from experienced supervisors and colleagues throughout an officer’s career.
We all know that the performance culture means that experienced officers of all ranks are “escaping” from core policing into those numerous departments and squads where they are not so bureaucratically scrutinised, leaving those with less service - in many cases three years or fewer - to supervise and develop new officers.
The result is officers “doing the best they are able” with the tools provided.
Would you allow your family car to be serviced by a part-trained unsupervised mechanic?
The reaction of the powers-that-be to the inevitable cock-ups that result is to spend large amounts of public money expanding and creating more professional standards departments to prosecute those of us who make those mistakes or errors of judgment.
It's called 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted'.
The new Misconduct and Performance Regulations come into force this November, and the changes that this will bring about stack the deck considerably in favour of the dealer.
Of course, we are aware that there are a small minority amongst us who need to be brought to book, dealt with robustly and, in some cases, prosecuted; this is right and should continue.
But proactively to chase officers of all ranks who are not and have not been properly supported is fundamentally wrong.
We and the public we serve deserve much more.
The solutions are simple and obvious. They used to be employed and should be again:
- Qualified, Trained, Experienced Supervisors
- Development for those who require it
- Dismissal for those who need it
- Solution culture, not blame culture
- Remove the non-essential bureaucratic number crunchers and the tier of administrators required to process the statistics they create.
Or is this too simple?
'Bobby Bobby'
Comments:
I can recall forty years ago when 21st century society was being hailed as a utopia where all the world's ills had been overcome and the planet was at peace an in harmony.
Then the PC brigade arrived...
Then the PC brigade arrived...
# posted by 
: 9:58 AM, July 16, 2008
: 9:58 AM, July 16, 2008
The eviting of utopia began with sloppy grammar. Any chap who takes care proactively to avoid a split infinitive has me in his corner.
# posted by : 11:05 AM, July 16, 2008
: 11:05 AM, July 16, 2008
Recently a pursuit trained traffic officer in an unmarked vehicle fitted with video, blue lights and sirens, had a vehicle that failed to stop for him.
The pursuit ended only seconds later with the offender veering to the otherside of the road on a bend and having a head on with an innocent MOP. This was very nearly potentially fatal and attracted the PSD to the scene which in turn had been referred to the IPCC.
The next day I had to take the unmarked police vehicle to PSD for live videoing. With all lights on to show how visible it is as a police car when attempting to stop a vehicle.
Now initially to me this seemed crazy. The vehicle has tracker aerials on the roof and visible lights in the windscreen as well as on the grill and at the rear. It really is lit up like Blackpool when all the lights are on.
But I came to understand that PSD weren't after blaming anyone within the police or using the police vehicle as a defence tool for the offender.
PSD actually set about to support the officer and show to the IPCC that the officer was clearly visible as Police and in no way contributed to the cause of the collision.
PSD can and will assist officers where there is no blame to be had.
The pursuit ended only seconds later with the offender veering to the otherside of the road on a bend and having a head on with an innocent MOP. This was very nearly potentially fatal and attracted the PSD to the scene which in turn had been referred to the IPCC.
The next day I had to take the unmarked police vehicle to PSD for live videoing. With all lights on to show how visible it is as a police car when attempting to stop a vehicle.
Now initially to me this seemed crazy. The vehicle has tracker aerials on the roof and visible lights in the windscreen as well as on the grill and at the rear. It really is lit up like Blackpool when all the lights are on.
But I came to understand that PSD weren't after blaming anyone within the police or using the police vehicle as a defence tool for the offender.
PSD actually set about to support the officer and show to the IPCC that the officer was clearly visible as Police and in no way contributed to the cause of the collision.
PSD can and will assist officers where there is no blame to be had.
# posted by : 1:45 PM, July 16, 2008
: 1:45 PM, July 16, 2008
Highwaypatrolman, you must have the best PSD dept in the country. My experience of them is that they are self serving cowards, too scared to go out on the streets, with no experience knowledge or understanding of what being a frontline Police officers is all about.
They seem to take pleasure in turning the screws on cops for the slightest percieved mistake and then drag thier collective feet doing the investigation. If i or any of my colleges took a tenth of the time to investigate a complaint the way PSD do we would be sheeted and rightly so.
They and the IPCC have become something from a Franz Kafka novel and it only seems to be getting worse. The only time i like seeing one of them is when they return to the shifts, then i get to watch incompetence on an epic level, and if im really lucky on day one of them will ask for help over the radio and i will take my sweet time to get to them.The are f****rs of the highest order.
Twelvelegs
They seem to take pleasure in turning the screws on cops for the slightest percieved mistake and then drag thier collective feet doing the investigation. If i or any of my colleges took a tenth of the time to investigate a complaint the way PSD do we would be sheeted and rightly so.
They and the IPCC have become something from a Franz Kafka novel and it only seems to be getting worse. The only time i like seeing one of them is when they return to the shifts, then i get to watch incompetence on an epic level, and if im really lucky on day one of them will ask for help over the radio and i will take my sweet time to get to them.The are f****rs of the highest order.
Twelvelegs
# posted by : 5:48 PM, July 16, 2008
: 5:48 PM, July 16, 2008
PSD are all too often full of self serving officers needing ticks in boxes for their ext promtion.
decent supervision keeps standards high and as bobby says, inexperience will lead to mishaps however unintentional.
Solution IMO:
1 when you join you must spend 10 on frontline or get to 35 yrs of age before an inside job or promotion is allowed.
2 Trainers need to have been on the streets within 2 years so at least they know what their talking about.
3 promotion should be on recommendation and modular courses, not buzz words and PC nonsense
some of the trainers haven't been on the streets for so long that half the laws they teach weren't even in green papers.
anyway enough moaning
decent supervision keeps standards high and as bobby says, inexperience will lead to mishaps however unintentional.
Solution IMO:
1 when you join you must spend 10 on frontline or get to 35 yrs of age before an inside job or promotion is allowed.
2 Trainers need to have been on the streets within 2 years so at least they know what their talking about.
3 promotion should be on recommendation and modular courses, not buzz words and PC nonsense
some of the trainers haven't been on the streets for so long that half the laws they teach weren't even in green papers.
anyway enough moaning
# posted by : 8:02 PM, July 16, 2008
: 8:02 PM, July 16, 2008
In my experience too, PSD are a bunch of idiots. Its true what is said earlier, I know of officers being investigated over "quality of service" issues, and then they take 6-9 months investigating a bull crap complaint that could be dealt with in a couple of weeks. Oh, and the tone of their emails too, all high and mighty. Who do they think they are? Never mind, looks good on their promotion board and yes, I have been spoken too before by them and will be again very soon. All unsubstantiated, I might add.I trust them about as far as I can throw them. Three quarters of them would crap themselves going back on the streets.Okay rant over.Slightly sidewards, but we have heard all stations and cars will be fitted with audio equipment soon. I mean, whats going on with that?The police FORCE is getting mighty "George Orwell" if you ask me
# posted by : 11:56 PM, July 16, 2008
: 11:56 PM, July 16, 2008
Johnny, in spite of design imperfections inherent in police investigating police, it is for the likes of you that we content ourselves with some inadequacies.
# posted by : 9:17 AM, July 17, 2008
: 9:17 AM, July 17, 2008
I've had my brushes with PSD, and in my case I do have a grudge to bare. I feel aggrieved at the whole process. I think its fair to say that PSD's primary job is to protect the organisation. If it is expedient for them to do that without screwing the officers involved, I think they MAY take that option. However, when it comes to achieving their primary goal, the ends justify ALL means. They have the power to ruin careers and lives. I suppose some PSD officers might give that 2 or 3 seconds thought before going ahead anyway.
Tip: If ever you get interviewed by PSD - take a solicitor... If the interview is at a Police station, its free to you. Preferably chose the defence solicitor that YOU as an officer most hate dealing with (because if they're a pain to you, they'll be a pain to them too).
ALSO, never be alone with PSD officers in a 'them and us' environment, unless you're secretly recording it via mobile phone in pocket. This happened to me and threats to my career were whispered, very effectively black mailing me. Of course, being naive I didn't have a recording device on so its my word against a C/Insp. with no witnesses. No one's gonna believe me!
Anon uniformed PC - 5yrs service
Tip: If ever you get interviewed by PSD - take a solicitor... If the interview is at a Police station, its free to you. Preferably chose the defence solicitor that YOU as an officer most hate dealing with (because if they're a pain to you, they'll be a pain to them too).
ALSO, never be alone with PSD officers in a 'them and us' environment, unless you're secretly recording it via mobile phone in pocket. This happened to me and threats to my career were whispered, very effectively black mailing me. Of course, being naive I didn't have a recording device on so its my word against a C/Insp. with no witnesses. No one's gonna believe me!
Anon uniformed PC - 5yrs service
# posted by : 10:21 AM, July 17, 2008
: 10:21 AM, July 17, 2008
DR M T GRAY:
For an apparentley educated individual (by your username) Your comment "about the likes of me" was rather scathing.Especially, if you knew the nature of things I had been spoken to about, which have been about not towing the party line and being honest with the people I deal with..
So really, how long have you been on PSD?Oh, and do tell me, Whats darth vader like when he gets drunk? Ive heard PSD/evil empire xmas parties are the best!
For an apparentley educated individual (by your username) Your comment "about the likes of me" was rather scathing.Especially, if you knew the nature of things I had been spoken to about, which have been about not towing the party line and being honest with the people I deal with..
So really, how long have you been on PSD?Oh, and do tell me, Whats darth vader like when he gets drunk? Ive heard PSD/evil empire xmas parties are the best!
# posted by : 10:28 AM, July 17, 2008
: 10:28 AM, July 17, 2008
PSD have a job to do; it's not something I'd relish but they're needed. Like everywhere, there's gonna be good psd officers, bad ones and evil ones. Do you expect PSD to be any different?
PSD have managed to investigate and sack corrupt officers and I'm grateful to them for it.
Compare their investigations to the ones that we investigate. Some are a load of bull, some are exagerations and some genuine. They all need checking out, that's what they do?
Of course there are some high and mighty PSDs who are pretentious and arrogant. Bit like some other officers I work with!!
PSD have managed to investigate and sack corrupt officers and I'm grateful to them for it.
Compare their investigations to the ones that we investigate. Some are a load of bull, some are exagerations and some genuine. They all need checking out, that's what they do?
Of course there are some high and mighty PSDs who are pretentious and arrogant. Bit like some other officers I work with!!
# posted by : 1:01 PM, July 17, 2008
: 1:01 PM, July 17, 2008
What hacks me off about complaints and PSD is that they resolve false complaints as unsubstantiated and it remains on your personal file, as opposed to false and malicious, it didn't happen etc etc. Unsubstantiated gives the impression that the incident happened as alleged but couldn't be proven.
# posted by : 2:52 PM, July 17, 2008
: 2:52 PM, July 17, 2008
2:52. I couldnt agree more. The FALSE complaints would be a lot easier to deal with if, once investigated, they were recognised as such. Stops the "no smoke without fire" brigade.
# posted by : 4:13 PM, July 17, 2008
: 4:13 PM, July 17, 2008
21 years in the job (2 Forces), all of it frontline, so I've had my fair share of complaints.
I've never had an issue with how I've been dealt with by C&D/PSD.
I've always been professional, honest and when I've made an error, I've held my hands up. I've been shown the same courtesy back.
Perhaps I've just been lucky ?
I've never had an issue with how I've been dealt with by C&D/PSD.
I've always been professional, honest and when I've made an error, I've held my hands up. I've been shown the same courtesy back.
Perhaps I've just been lucky ?
# posted by : 6:02 PM, July 17, 2008
: 6:02 PM, July 17, 2008
The serious allegations have to investigated, and if any complaint had been made against me I would want the best and most experienced officers looking into it in order to clear my name.
That said in my experience the frustrating times are well it is so obvious that an officer is in the right, but due process takes too long, resulting in the frustrations officers talk about. An officer trying to do the job to the best of their ability needs to be vindicated quickly, not kept in the dark for months on end.
Not dealing with the dross quickly enough is the main source of grief.
That said in my experience the frustrating times are well it is so obvious that an officer is in the right, but due process takes too long, resulting in the frustrations officers talk about. An officer trying to do the job to the best of their ability needs to be vindicated quickly, not kept in the dark for months on end.
Not dealing with the dross quickly enough is the main source of grief.
Personally, I'm on the fence with this. I too have had my share of dealings with PSD. To be fair, I have only ever had one total halfwit. I wouldn't mind, but that was when I had seen a bobby do something very wrong and naturally, I told someone. Im not a 'PC' simpleton and will ignore most things, but something criminal goes over the line. Naturally, far from 'ploughing a straight furrow', apparently I was in on it and was only snitching to cover my own backside! When I have been papered myself though, I've just told the truth. As someone else said, if I've cocked up, I've put my hands up. It's only when you try to lie your way out of it you get stiffed. I've found that when I have done this, the complaints go away. I do think that they should exist in some form to deal with officers engaged in criminal eactivities etc. but some of the other stupid shit that they drag out is a touch silly.
# posted by : 1:31 PM, July 18, 2008
: 1:31 PM, July 18, 2008
Two officers were injured when they were attacked by a mob after asking a teenage girl to pick up some litter she dropped.
(Advertisement)
Up to 30 teenagers attacked the two policemen after the teenager refused their request and became aggressive.
One of the officers required hospital treatment for a bite wound after the attack in North End, central Croydon, south London, on Wednesday afternoon.
Police said violence was sparked after the patrolling officers confronted the teenage girl at about 3pm.
They asked her to pick up a piece of litter which she did, but immediately dropped it on the ground again. When they asked her to pick it up again a friend with the girl became aggressive towards the officers.
A group of up to 30 teenagers gathered around the officers and attacked them. A Metropolitan Police spokesman said the officers, aged 34 and 29, were on sick leave suffering from bruising and knee injuries.
A 15-year-old girl was arrested at the scene on suspicion of assault. She has been released on police bail.
Two men aged 34 and 38, both from South Norwood, were arrested on suspicion of assault and violent disorder on Thursday.
Inspector Simon Ellingham said officers were examining CCTV footage from the area. He said: "We have heard from several retailers in the area who were horrified at the level of violence used by the crowd against the officers.
"If you were in North End, central Croydon, at around 3pm on Wednesday and saw anything
(Advertisement)
Up to 30 teenagers attacked the two policemen after the teenager refused their request and became aggressive.
One of the officers required hospital treatment for a bite wound after the attack in North End, central Croydon, south London, on Wednesday afternoon.
Police said violence was sparked after the patrolling officers confronted the teenage girl at about 3pm.
They asked her to pick up a piece of litter which she did, but immediately dropped it on the ground again. When they asked her to pick it up again a friend with the girl became aggressive towards the officers.
A group of up to 30 teenagers gathered around the officers and attacked them. A Metropolitan Police spokesman said the officers, aged 34 and 29, were on sick leave suffering from bruising and knee injuries.
A 15-year-old girl was arrested at the scene on suspicion of assault. She has been released on police bail.
Two men aged 34 and 38, both from South Norwood, were arrested on suspicion of assault and violent disorder on Thursday.
Inspector Simon Ellingham said officers were examining CCTV footage from the area. He said: "We have heard from several retailers in the area who were horrified at the level of violence used by the crowd against the officers.
"If you were in North End, central Croydon, at around 3pm on Wednesday and saw anything
# posted by : 1:41 PM, July 18, 2008
: 1:41 PM, July 18, 2008
I wasn't there , but if you did you witnessed a scene that occurred on a British street, in broad day light, that should have every cretin involved charged with riot (absolutely no chance-bet its charged down to a minor public order offence) and sentenced accordingly.
Good job they did not have a glock , the first 5 shot dead would have been a busy old scene for the IPCC.
Good job they did not have a glock , the first 5 shot dead would have been a busy old scene for the IPCC.
It isn't the guys in PSD that are the problem. They only go for the jugular when someone in the SMT tells them to. If you haven't irritated too many people, you'll be supported.
I'm not hopeful if they ever get a hold of me...
I'm not hopeful if they ever get a hold of me...
My only complaint about C+D /PSD in 20+ years was that they take far too long to investigate a matter that I was only allowed a finite time for. This immediately suggests double standards. Fortunately non of my misdemeanours got past a very sensible Chief Constable. So well done Charles KELLY you will always have my utmost respect.
Jurgen
Jurgen
# posted by : 7:55 PM, July 18, 2008
: 7:55 PM, July 18, 2008
This is shocking news !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7515251.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7515251.stm
# posted by : 9:39 PM, July 19, 2008
: 9:39 PM, July 19, 2008
Don't you think that it might have something to do with letting the youths have the upper hand in most cases?
Can't take photos of minors who are harassing/terrorizing/threatening? Where are the priorities of British police agencies???
http://crypticsubterranean.blogspot.com/2008/07/photographic-assault.html
Can't take photos of minors who are harassing/terrorizing/threatening? Where are the priorities of British police agencies???
http://crypticsubterranean.blogspot.com/2008/07/photographic-assault.html
With regard to Uniform's comment -
The story that I read in the papers made me so angry... Teenage Chavs attacking Police Officers and winning? How does this work out. I like to think that if I was attacked by a gang of teenage chavs then I would at least have put a fewin hospital. As I am sure the officers would have been able to justify almost any action in the situation. At least then you could have been named in the press as the brave officer who broke the little scrotes neck in the battle of Croydon. Plus the DPS interview would be a masterpiece.
The story that I read in the papers made me so angry... Teenage Chavs attacking Police Officers and winning? How does this work out. I like to think that if I was attacked by a gang of teenage chavs then I would at least have put a fewin hospital. As I am sure the officers would have been able to justify almost any action in the situation. At least then you could have been named in the press as the brave officer who broke the little scrotes neck in the battle of Croydon. Plus the DPS interview would be a masterpiece.
# posted by : 9:07 PM, July 21, 2008
: 9:07 PM, July 21, 2008
If you want to seriously get into the RC helicopter hobby, then a glow engine chopper is perfect for realism, building, maintaining and flying! You will be able to personalize your chopper exactly the way you want it, like hover time and rotor speed. Once you get a feel for your helicopters, and have everything adjusted perfectly, your rc airplane will fly just the way you want it and not the way some factory decided it should. Vantage's compact size and tail-light feature, in combination with its powerful C4 led, make it the perfect tactical hands-free light for firefighting personnel and other first responders who require lighting tools with extreme brightness and long run times, said wolf-eyes light Chief Operating Officer Ray Sharrah. Its integrated bracket design makes it extremely easy to use - firefighters can attach or remove the tacticale flashlight in seconds without the need for tools, and rotate it 360 degrees on the swivel clamp
Post a Comment
# posted by : 10:05 AM, August 04, 2008
: 10:05 AM, August 04, 2008
