Friday, March 28, 2008
British Justice, Courtesy Of Monty Python
Every police officer has their regulars. Nobody but the most deluded, Guardian-reading sociology lecturer will be surprised as to why they are 'regulars'; it's because they regularly commit crimes.
Often they commit crimes while on bail, or after early release for 'good behaviour'. Sometimes they commit crimes on the way to court, or after leaving it and indulging in a liquid lunch to celebrate their acquittal, or the award of a community sentence which they won't complete.
Bryan was a serial scumbag of my acquaintance. It was mostly shoplifting, with a few assaults, bilkings, low-level frauds, criminal damages, numerous domestics and the odd commercial premises burglary thrown in. He was at the Mags more often than the ushers, but it never seemed to stop him working. His criminal career only started tailing off in his early 40s, when he started being more of a victim; he used to get punched in the mouth quite a lot, I seem to recall.
In the end, he died from a heroin overdose on the beach in another county. Ah well.
A decade on, Joanne Jones is carrying on Bryan's good work. She's just been allowed to walk free by a magistrate called Neil Hubbard, despite having just been convicted for the 175th time.
The full story can be found by following the link, but I wanted to make a few observations.
1. Neil Hubbard must be bonkers.
2. This is not 'news', in the sense that news should be about things which rarely happen. There are similar cases going on all over the country every week.
3. Joanne Jones has 175 priors. Those are the offences she was a) caught for and b) convicted of. Her real record will be far worse.
4. People often say jail doesn't work, or claim it costs too much. Well, if Joanne Jones had been given six months for her first offence, two years for her second and ten years for her third, assuming she started as a teenager we'd have saved £700,000 on prosecution costs and we'd be around 170 known victims down.
I predict Joanne will be on her 12th White Lightning round about now, and that the local bobbies will be seeing her sometime in the next three days.
FOXTROT OSCAR
Often they commit crimes while on bail, or after early release for 'good behaviour'. Sometimes they commit crimes on the way to court, or after leaving it and indulging in a liquid lunch to celebrate their acquittal, or the award of a community sentence which they won't complete.
Bryan was a serial scumbag of my acquaintance. It was mostly shoplifting, with a few assaults, bilkings, low-level frauds, criminal damages, numerous domestics and the odd commercial premises burglary thrown in. He was at the Mags more often than the ushers, but it never seemed to stop him working. His criminal career only started tailing off in his early 40s, when he started being more of a victim; he used to get punched in the mouth quite a lot, I seem to recall.
In the end, he died from a heroin overdose on the beach in another county. Ah well.
A decade on, Joanne Jones is carrying on Bryan's good work. She's just been allowed to walk free by a magistrate called Neil Hubbard, despite having just been convicted for the 175th time.
The full story can be found by following the link, but I wanted to make a few observations.
1. Neil Hubbard must be bonkers.
2. This is not 'news', in the sense that news should be about things which rarely happen. There are similar cases going on all over the country every week.
3. Joanne Jones has 175 priors. Those are the offences she was a) caught for and b) convicted of. Her real record will be far worse.
4. People often say jail doesn't work, or claim it costs too much. Well, if Joanne Jones had been given six months for her first offence, two years for her second and ten years for her third, assuming she started as a teenager we'd have saved £700,000 on prosecution costs and we'd be around 170 known victims down.
I predict Joanne will be on her 12th White Lightning round about now, and that the local bobbies will be seeing her sometime in the next three days.
FOXTROT OSCAR
Comments:
"....she was spared a further sentence after a magistrate, Neil Hubbard, said there was a "chink of light" that suggested she might be better off free."
That chink of light. Was it let in through the gaping hole where the magistrate's brain used to be....?
""You are no stranger to this court. However, on this occasion we're going to give you an opportunity...""
What does he mean, 'this occasion'..? She's been given an 'opportunity' on every single occasion she's been up before the court, she just hasn't taken them.
That chink of light. Was it let in through the gaping hole where the magistrate's brain used to be....?
""You are no stranger to this court. However, on this occasion we're going to give you an opportunity...""
What does he mean, 'this occasion'..? She's been given an 'opportunity' on every single occasion she's been up before the court, she just hasn't taken them.
In fairness, juliam, she has been sent to prison 34 times, so it's only 141 second chances.
# posted by 
: 10:22 AM, March 28, 2008
: 10:22 AM, March 28, 2008
If that is the Neil Hubbard I think it is he is neither stupid or unworldly
#JM
#JM
# posted by : 11:10 AM, March 28, 2008
: 11:10 AM, March 28, 2008
The real blame is not for Neil Hubbard...
It is for a Government that has failed to build enough prison spaces - and failed to reduce peoples benefits in order to force them back to work.
The US has almost 1% of its population in side. We would need 600 000 spaces to do this - we currently have 82 000 !!
The Government (1) Sold HMP Weare - the prison ship prior to the prison accomodation crisis (despite warnings) (2) It has belatedly promised to build 3 titan jails - which those in the know claim will never be built.
It is for a Government that has failed to build enough prison spaces - and failed to reduce peoples benefits in order to force them back to work.
The US has almost 1% of its population in side. We would need 600 000 spaces to do this - we currently have 82 000 !!
The Government (1) Sold HMP Weare - the prison ship prior to the prison accomodation crisis (despite warnings) (2) It has belatedly promised to build 3 titan jails - which those in the know claim will never be built.
# posted by : 11:41 AM, March 28, 2008
: 11:41 AM, March 28, 2008
I don't know Neil Hubbard, but it seems stretching a point to describe him as 'neither stupid nor unworldly.'
Perhaps Neil will come on here and explain why he felt it was sensible to let this woman walk?
We all know the answer, of course - there aren't the jail spaces.
Perhaps Neil will come on here and explain why he felt it was sensible to let this woman walk?
We all know the answer, of course - there aren't the jail spaces.
# posted by : 2:34 PM, March 28, 2008
: 2:34 PM, March 28, 2008
Quite right FO - people like this are everywhere. We could cut crime by 75% if we just potted the dozen or two major recidivists in each town.
# posted by : 2:36 PM, March 28, 2008
: 2:36 PM, March 28, 2008
What also amazes and saddens me is she was ordered to pay £40 to the shop after taking £117 of stuff! Who says crime doesn't pay.....
What a strange country we are now.
What a strange country we are now.
# posted by : 2:59 PM, March 28, 2008
: 2:59 PM, March 28, 2008
It is time to scrap the fiction in Your Kirklees and boldly print what has been long suspected - that crime does pay. The two winners, in descending order of proceed sharing are - the maggot lawyers (pocketing £3/4m costs in this profile alone) and a criminal society hurriedly released to the community to perpetuate the cycle. The system suits both named parties. Rights and safeguards are vital but it does not follow that the only transport for justice is free rides in gold plated limousines. 'Crime does not pay' is the cry of a plutocracy reasonably content with the status quo. Overall, the legal profession suffers no loss from crime whatsoever. Housed away from it, lawyers are further protected by yourselves. In turn, lawyers monopolise Parliament in an arrangement of mutual comfort; providing that legal costs do not bankrupt the economy. As we approach that point, there can be no prizes for guessing which belts will be tightened. There will be no change to this economic model for as long as an alternative is denied. With the most generous will, I find myself hoping for the day when the worst of our lawyers and politicians, together with their common counterparts in fraud and crime, are found room in the cells to await a revised style of trial. It will be doubly satisfying for all to know that such beckon the criminal in the sure knowledge that hard work and the length of any custodial sentence will be exactly that.
# posted by : 3:25 PM, March 28, 2008
: 3:25 PM, March 28, 2008
I guess one of the flaws of encouraging the more base, common and popular to join the lay judiciary is that inevitably some of them will bring a copy of the Grauniad with them. A few of them may not even be familiar with Syrus.
Right now though, it's hard to see what else a beak can do. Shove another recividist in the top and something nastier may be squeezed out of the bottom of the meat grinder.
Flog 'em says I, and not for the first time. Recividists and social experimenters, it's all good.
Right now though, it's hard to see what else a beak can do. Shove another recividist in the top and something nastier may be squeezed out of the bottom of the meat grinder.
Flog 'em says I, and not for the first time. Recividists and social experimenters, it's all good.
"there was a "chink of light" that suggested she might be better off free."
Isn't anyone better off free than being in prison? Her victims on the other hand, would prefer her to be banged up.
Isn't anyone better off free than being in prison? Her victims on the other hand, would prefer her to be banged up.
# posted by : 3:44 PM, March 28, 2008
: 3:44 PM, March 28, 2008
And on the same theme.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/28/ndowning128.xml
"only 78 convictions though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/28/ndowning128.xml
"only 78 convictions though.
# posted by : 7:52 PM, March 28, 2008
: 7:52 PM, March 28, 2008
One of anonymous suggests that it's the government's fault for not reducing benefit and making people work. Let me be the first to point out the blindingly obvious - this lady is a full time thieving junkie scumbag. She'd be doing it whether or not she was collecting benefits. And I'm sure police officers know better than most of the public (from observing their regular customers) that going to prison is not a good way to get _off_ drugs. So not sure what the relevance of prison places or benefits is to this particular offender, except to the extent that if she was banged up the costs of 'keeping' her would be borne by the taxpayer in general, as opposed to the victims of her crimes.
# posted by : 8:03 PM, March 28, 2008
: 8:03 PM, March 28, 2008
I dealt with someone who had 6 (SIX) concurrent driving disqualifications given out at court.
His punishment for driving whilst banned was... To get another ban.
I'm only a lowly plod but how can you be banned more than once for driving?
It seemed to me that every additional driving ban was just a tact admission by the court that there was nothing to be done.
His punishment for driving whilst banned was... To get another ban.
I'm only a lowly plod but how can you be banned more than once for driving?
It seemed to me that every additional driving ban was just a tact admission by the court that there was nothing to be done.
# posted by : 9:46 PM, March 28, 2008
: 9:46 PM, March 28, 2008
What makes someone a "scumbag"? Simply because they have a criminal record is surely not sufficient for you to resort to this level of abuse? The word is used by two separate commentators in response to this thread. There are numerous other disparaging euphemisms used throughout this site. Having read this blog for several months now, I note that there is a tendency to treat certain sectors of society with less than the respect that you the posters would expect to be given to you. It is simply another aspect of anti-social behaviour that is so prevalent in today's society. If you expect others to treat you with respect, at least have the decency to accord them a modicum of respect also.
# posted by : 10:14 PM, March 28, 2008
: 10:14 PM, March 28, 2008
"this lady is a full time thieving junkie scumbag. She'd be doing it whether or not she was collecting benefits"
The idea is to get the "chav nation" back to work. If people have reduced benefits they have to work or steal - if we have enough prison spaces for those that steal hopefully many of the "chavs" will see the logic in going back to work.
There are plenty of jobs in this country...600 000 Poles have managed to find them, even, dare I say it, that they don't have a greater command of English than the chavs.
Over the next few years - as Poland becomes more prosperous - most of the Poles are likely to return.
The Government needs to kick our underclass back into work. We law abiders cannot continue to fund the benefit system through our ever increasing taxes.
I don't usually do soundbites - but the mantra "Prison or work" has a catchy ring about it.
The idea is to get the "chav nation" back to work. If people have reduced benefits they have to work or steal - if we have enough prison spaces for those that steal hopefully many of the "chavs" will see the logic in going back to work.
There are plenty of jobs in this country...600 000 Poles have managed to find them, even, dare I say it, that they don't have a greater command of English than the chavs.
Over the next few years - as Poland becomes more prosperous - most of the Poles are likely to return.
The Government needs to kick our underclass back into work. We law abiders cannot continue to fund the benefit system through our ever increasing taxes.
I don't usually do soundbites - but the mantra "Prison or work" has a catchy ring about it.
# posted by : 10:47 PM, March 28, 2008
: 10:47 PM, March 28, 2008
i'Crime doesn't pay' - true if you are of the type who believe that honest work DOES pay. But if you want to bounce along the bottom of the ladder then crime does pay because the system allows it to be so.
But how nice of the beak to give this poor woman a second chance. I am sure that faced with the choice of buying four bags of heroin or paying the £40 compo to TK Maxx, she will wipe a grateful tear from her eye and, rattling gently, forego her fix and walk in the cold and rain to the fines office to hand over her compo in a new-found fit of public-spiritedness which wil see her back on the straight and narrow for evermore.
If you think that last sounds like a load of twaddle I couldn't agree more, so how out of touch is the dumb magistrate, for crying out loud??!! What planet is he on? I bet you could have knocked the defence solicitor down with a feather!
But how nice of the beak to give this poor woman a second chance. I am sure that faced with the choice of buying four bags of heroin or paying the £40 compo to TK Maxx, she will wipe a grateful tear from her eye and, rattling gently, forego her fix and walk in the cold and rain to the fines office to hand over her compo in a new-found fit of public-spiritedness which wil see her back on the straight and narrow for evermore.
If you think that last sounds like a load of twaddle I couldn't agree more, so how out of touch is the dumb magistrate, for crying out loud??!! What planet is he on? I bet you could have knocked the defence solicitor down with a feather!
# posted by : 11:19 PM, March 28, 2008
: 11:19 PM, March 28, 2008
If the woman was shoplifting to fund a heroin habit then that adds weight to Richard Brunstrom's point that the best way to deal with the problem is to sort of "legalise" the drug, so that addicts can be better controlled and helped off it. Reducing people's benefits will only make matters worse and is unfair on genuine cases. It is statute law that people are entitled to receive enough money to keep them alive if they are out of work.
The DWP DO put pressure on people to get jobs and they have rules which allow them to reduce benefits if people refuse to work, so all this harsh talk about people on benefits just smacks of fascism.
The prisons are FULL. NO SPACES. They let a bloody terorist out recently on early release! It would also cost a great deal more to keep the shoplifter in prison, than she receives in benefits.
THIS COUNTRY IS IN A MESS.
Gee thanks Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, John Reid, David Blunket, for well and truly screwing it up.
I bet they are SO proud of what they have achieved, especially THEIR gold plated pensions. TWATS.
The DWP DO put pressure on people to get jobs and they have rules which allow them to reduce benefits if people refuse to work, so all this harsh talk about people on benefits just smacks of fascism.
The prisons are FULL. NO SPACES. They let a bloody terorist out recently on early release! It would also cost a great deal more to keep the shoplifter in prison, than she receives in benefits.
THIS COUNTRY IS IN A MESS.
Gee thanks Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, John Reid, David Blunket, for well and truly screwing it up.
I bet they are SO proud of what they have achieved, especially THEIR gold plated pensions. TWATS.
# posted by : 1:39 AM, March 29, 2008
: 1:39 AM, March 29, 2008
Prison does not work because it is too soft. If prison is a easy option, when compared to working and paying your taxes, then it is not going to be a punishment.
Prison should be 4 walls and 3 meals a day. We should adopt a similarsystem to some of the states in the U.S. by introducing the 3 strike rule for repeat offenders. If you get three convictions, then you get slammed with a long sentance.
The problem of prison places could be rectified with a large super prison, not unlike the state prisons used in the U.S. We should also consider the aproach of the Chinese and execute prisoners then sell their organs.
Prison should be 4 walls and 3 meals a day. We should adopt a similarsystem to some of the states in the U.S. by introducing the 3 strike rule for repeat offenders. If you get three convictions, then you get slammed with a long sentance.
The problem of prison places could be rectified with a large super prison, not unlike the state prisons used in the U.S. We should also consider the aproach of the Chinese and execute prisoners then sell their organs.
Quick question for any lawyers who may be reading: is the magistrate actionable in civil law if this woman commits a crime? ie his failing has allowed her to make a victim of Mrs X, so Mrs X sues?
# posted by : 3:06 PM, March 29, 2008
: 3:06 PM, March 29, 2008
Lack of prison spaces? Why not start by building a thirty foot wall around Liverpool?
# posted by : 7:27 PM, March 29, 2008
: 7:27 PM, March 29, 2008
>Why not start by building a thirty foot wall around Liverpool?
Because all the materials would get nicked?
Because all the materials would get nicked?
# posted by : 9:46 AM, March 30, 2008
: 9:46 AM, March 30, 2008
One day we will see a judge who states something like the following: "You are a truly useless piece of shite, and I'm going to have you locked up for several years".
One day -- perhaps ...
Banjo
One day -- perhaps ...
Banjo
# posted by : 3:43 PM, March 30, 2008
: 3:43 PM, March 30, 2008
Makes me smile - in my 10+ years I have met a number of "prolific offenders" - one I recall - a deaf & dumb heroin addict would get arrested at 10am for theft from store, interviewed with solicitor & translator then bailed by 3pm - by 4pm he would be back for theft from store. He had over 100 precons 8 yrs ago - he would go to court, bail, court, bail, court, bail.
Only around his 20th appearence he would get a custodial sentence - then we would start again.
We have another one the same now - young girl - on heroin - gets arrested, charged and bailed at 2pm, back in the block by 3!!
Its a waste of time - incarceration or death is the only way forward ;-)
Thing is with these people they clearly get away with more than they are caught for - oh well - keeps me in a job with O/T.
Only around his 20th appearence he would get a custodial sentence - then we would start again.
We have another one the same now - young girl - on heroin - gets arrested, charged and bailed at 2pm, back in the block by 3!!
Its a waste of time - incarceration or death is the only way forward ;-)
Thing is with these people they clearly get away with more than they are caught for - oh well - keeps me in a job with O/T.
# posted by : 9:25 PM, March 30, 2008
: 9:25 PM, March 30, 2008
I'm really sorry Foxtrot Oscar but you're doing yourself a great didervice constantly harping on about "Guardian Readers". You don't like it when people characterise or sterotype coppers so don't you then stereotype everybody else. Maybe the way some of you go on about stuff on this blog I should start calling all coppers Sun readers. Or even worse - Daily Mail readers.
# posted by : 9:53 AM, April 03, 2008
: 9:53 AM, April 03, 2008
Simple solution for this lot. Back yard of the nick. Kneel down, .22 bullet tap in the back of the head. Jobs a good un.
Now. Where is my Lugger?.
Drunkplod
Now. Where is my Lugger?.
Drunkplod
# posted by : 3:13 AM, April 07, 2008
: 3:13 AM, April 07, 2008
wot an interesting insight into the world of law enforcement in the U.K.!! I note the "blokey" banter,repetitive use of the word "scumbag" and cynicism thinly disguised as humour. The huge regard shown for the criminal justice system is breathtaking - perhaps you should all come round to my gaff on an "estate" and I can show you therapeutic knitting?Moss stitch beats cross stitch?
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# posted by : 7:16 PM, April 07, 2008
: 7:16 PM, April 07, 2008
