Monday, March 03, 2008
Five Thousand New Prison Places Is Just A Start
The Tories' Shadow Police Minister Nick Herbert was on Simon Mayo's BBC Five Live show today. Herbert is an articulate, intelligent and cogent politician who I suspect will go far; he's certainly a lot sharper than the muppets he's up against.
Herbert was on to talk about his party's new plan to sell off dilapidated old prisons and replace them with new ones paid for with the proceeds.
He reckons this will provide 5,000 new cells. Well, we certainly need them.
Up against him was David Hanson, who managed to rubbish the new proposal as uncosted while admitting he hadn't actually read it and, simultaneously, claiming the Conservatives had 'copied Labour'. Such is modern politics.
Hanson claimed crime had fallen by over 30% in the last 10 years, and this went unchallenged by Mayo. It doesn't feel like a 30% fall round our way. And how is it that prison numbers are at a record high - such that police station gaolers are stacking them three deep - if no-one actually doing anything naughty?
This picture shows Susan Collins, a 60-year-old from Warrington. On the left is how she looked after she was beaten to within an inch of her life by 22-year-old Nicholas Hague because she wouldn't give him a cigarette.
Hague was released early from prison after serving approximately five minutes of a manslaughter sentence - manslaughter, mark you, remember when that was serious? - handed down for being part of a gang which kicked a man to death. (He's now back inside serving an indeterminate sentence which will involve a minimum of three years and 162 days 'behind bars'; his victim will suffer for the rest of her days.)
On the Mayo programme, some woman from one of the fluffy anti-prison groups was given a platform to complain that more community service was needed and to claim that people who served short jail terms were the most likely to come out and rob you.
Well, yes. That's because they're criminals.
Look at this picture and tell me this wooly rubbish isn't an argument for longer sentences.
We can argue all day about punishment vs rehab, and what the poor dears do inside, but while they're tucked away they're not outside kicking old ladies' faces in.
Five thousand new places is a start, Nick. But that's all it is.
TCT
If you'd like to submit articles of your own, click on the link at the top right.
Herbert was on to talk about his party's new plan to sell off dilapidated old prisons and replace them with new ones paid for with the proceeds.
He reckons this will provide 5,000 new cells. Well, we certainly need them.
Up against him was David Hanson, who managed to rubbish the new proposal as uncosted while admitting he hadn't actually read it and, simultaneously, claiming the Conservatives had 'copied Labour'. Such is modern politics.
Hanson claimed crime had fallen by over 30% in the last 10 years, and this went unchallenged by Mayo. It doesn't feel like a 30% fall round our way. And how is it that prison numbers are at a record high - such that police station gaolers are stacking them three deep - if no-one actually doing anything naughty?
This picture shows Susan Collins, a 60-year-old from Warrington. On the left is how she looked after she was beaten to within an inch of her life by 22-year-old Nicholas Hague because she wouldn't give him a cigarette.
Hague was released early from prison after serving approximately five minutes of a manslaughter sentence - manslaughter, mark you, remember when that was serious? - handed down for being part of a gang which kicked a man to death. (He's now back inside serving an indeterminate sentence which will involve a minimum of three years and 162 days 'behind bars'; his victim will suffer for the rest of her days.)On the Mayo programme, some woman from one of the fluffy anti-prison groups was given a platform to complain that more community service was needed and to claim that people who served short jail terms were the most likely to come out and rob you.
Well, yes. That's because they're criminals.
Look at this picture and tell me this wooly rubbish isn't an argument for longer sentences.
We can argue all day about punishment vs rehab, and what the poor dears do inside, but while they're tucked away they're not outside kicking old ladies' faces in.
Five thousand new places is a start, Nick. But that's all it is.
TCT
If you'd like to submit articles of your own, click on the link at the top right.
Comments:
Absolutely. I'm all for re-habilitate those who can be changed and who want to change but the majority do not fall into that catagory. While they are in prison they are not racking up more victims. Forget about their rights, concentrate on the rights of victims and society and keep them locked up!
# posted by 
: 4:01 PM, March 03, 2008
: 4:01 PM, March 03, 2008
"tell me this wooly rubbish isn't an argument for longer sentences"
Absolutely. I listened to this issue being debated on the Today programme this morning. The more the anti-prison lot went on about most ex-cons re-offending within x months of leaving, the more I thought "If they were still in prison during those months ..."
Absolutely. I listened to this issue being debated on the Today programme this morning. The more the anti-prison lot went on about most ex-cons re-offending within x months of leaving, the more I thought "If they were still in prison during those months ..."
# posted by : 4:48 PM, March 03, 2008
: 4:48 PM, March 03, 2008
The only problem with the rehabilitation strategy is that it has failed utterly. Incarceration prevents recidivism for the duration - provided that prosecutions succeed in convicting the guilty and acquitting the innocent, and that very minor or victimless crimes are prioritized below violent crimes, keeping the most dangerous offenders locked up.
The United States highest incarceration rate in the world should really be broken down into two rates: the three-strikes-and-you're-out state laws have done a great deal of good applied to burglaries, robberies and assaults, while the prison sentences for drug posession are much more questionable both practically and morally.
The United States highest incarceration rate in the world should really be broken down into two rates: the three-strikes-and-you're-out state laws have done a great deal of good applied to burglaries, robberies and assaults, while the prison sentences for drug posession are much more questionable both practically and morally.
# posted by : 6:37 PM, March 03, 2008
: 6:37 PM, March 03, 2008
Not just UK where they go soft on criminals. This clip is very very graphic
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e1_1199622703
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e1_1199622703
# posted by : 7:48 PM, March 03, 2008
: 7:48 PM, March 03, 2008
5,000 new places?
By the time these new prisons have been built, we'll need places for 10,000 more convicted criminals and we'll be back to square minus one.
By the time these new prisons have been built, we'll need places for 10,000 more convicted criminals and we'll be back to square minus one.
# posted by : 8:49 PM, March 03, 2008
: 8:49 PM, March 03, 2008
Locked up a scumbag yesterday who was thieving from people visiting graves on Mothers Day. He was wearing a fashionable tagging device whilst doing so. This raises two simple issues. Firstly the argument that community sentences reduce reoffending doesn,t seem to be reflected in this instance. Second if he had been where he should of, there would have been three less victims of crime. Maybe the anti-prison movement should participate in an experiment, and move next door to one of these early releases for 6 months. Not a clue the lot of them.
# posted by : 9:05 PM, March 03, 2008
: 9:05 PM, March 03, 2008
""One Percent of All American Adults are Incarcerated""
We would have to build another 520 000 prison spaces to achieve this goal!!
Perhaps unachievable and excessive - but it would suggest that 80 000 spaces is woefully inadequate!
The reality is we need at leat 150 000 spaces now. This Government have abdicated their responsibility and ducked and dived over the past ten years - despite enough warnings being given.
They sold HMP Weare - the prison ship and are now trying to buy it back. They have belated promised to build three "titan" prisons that those in the know claim will never be built.
Forward planning and succession management are perhaps two unheard of phrases in modern Prison service management.
The prison service is the "forgotten service" whose hard working staff were not even awarded the Queens Jubilee (or whatever medal) we all got a few years ago.
I always smile at the "guardian reading liberals" who one on hand claim we imprison too many people, then claim all racists, wife beaters and homophobes should be incarcerated for life!
It doesnt take a degree in economics to realise that it is cheaper to keep many of these thieves in prison than the cost of their crimes when they are on the outside.
I don't want to go on without suggesting solutions...
Lets have a "tent city" as per Sherriff Joe in America , bunk beds in every cell in the UK, else fly a few thousand crims out to an impoverised african nation we give aid too - and instill an economy in a country that needs one
We would have to build another 520 000 prison spaces to achieve this goal!!
Perhaps unachievable and excessive - but it would suggest that 80 000 spaces is woefully inadequate!
The reality is we need at leat 150 000 spaces now. This Government have abdicated their responsibility and ducked and dived over the past ten years - despite enough warnings being given.
They sold HMP Weare - the prison ship and are now trying to buy it back. They have belated promised to build three "titan" prisons that those in the know claim will never be built.
Forward planning and succession management are perhaps two unheard of phrases in modern Prison service management.
The prison service is the "forgotten service" whose hard working staff were not even awarded the Queens Jubilee (or whatever medal) we all got a few years ago.
I always smile at the "guardian reading liberals" who one on hand claim we imprison too many people, then claim all racists, wife beaters and homophobes should be incarcerated for life!
It doesnt take a degree in economics to realise that it is cheaper to keep many of these thieves in prison than the cost of their crimes when they are on the outside.
I don't want to go on without suggesting solutions...
Lets have a "tent city" as per Sherriff Joe in America , bunk beds in every cell in the UK, else fly a few thousand crims out to an impoverised african nation we give aid too - and instill an economy in a country that needs one
# posted by : 9:30 PM, March 03, 2008
: 9:30 PM, March 03, 2008
Apparently its £50,000 per year to keep someone incarnated (although I’m extremely sceptical about how people dream up these figures). However assuming it is true, I still actually think its value for money. Consider average Billy Burglar (drug dependency) over any 12 months:
Starting with the handouts….
12 months housing
12 months free NHS treatment (everything from free needles, G.P. to emergency care)
12 months free dental care (well, if he wanted it!)
12 months free income (a whole raft of benefits, far too many to list)
12 months free services of a drug care worker (and equivalents) plus ‘treatment’ programs etc.
12 months free methadone
12 months of unrelenting criminal offences; thefts, robberies, burglaries, frauds…
Decent people having to replace their stolen property and fix up their homes (not too mention their shattered lives)
Everyone’s insurance premiums increasing
Probably a weekly (monthly at best) ‘interaction’ with the police – thousands of hours for nothing
Countless hours of courts’ time
Countless hours of wasted probation/enforcement officers’ time
More wasted court time….
Need I go on?
Its only because the effect of said Billy is spread across many different areas of society that the true cost can never be determined. But it must be COLOSSAL!!!
£50,000 a year is a bargain!
Starting with the handouts….
12 months housing
12 months free NHS treatment (everything from free needles, G.P. to emergency care)
12 months free dental care (well, if he wanted it!)
12 months free income (a whole raft of benefits, far too many to list)
12 months free services of a drug care worker (and equivalents) plus ‘treatment’ programs etc.
12 months free methadone
12 months of unrelenting criminal offences; thefts, robberies, burglaries, frauds…
Decent people having to replace their stolen property and fix up their homes (not too mention their shattered lives)
Everyone’s insurance premiums increasing
Probably a weekly (monthly at best) ‘interaction’ with the police – thousands of hours for nothing
Countless hours of courts’ time
Countless hours of wasted probation/enforcement officers’ time
More wasted court time….
Need I go on?
Its only because the effect of said Billy is spread across many different areas of society that the true cost can never be determined. But it must be COLOSSAL!!!
£50,000 a year is a bargain!
# posted by : 12:01 AM, March 04, 2008
: 12:01 AM, March 04, 2008
But we forget the legal professionals who will be out of jobs? It is not in the interests of the judges, politicians (with their links to many firms) and solicitors, barristers, social workers and probation workers, for criminals to be locked up for long.
There is a huge professional parasite industry that feeds off crime and the welfare state.
If the criminals were imprisoned (until they were safe to release), then that parasite would have no re offenders to feed off.
No politician, no judge and certainly no solicitor will ever let that happen.
If the price of a safer society was my job, I'd gladly pay and find a new profession (I'm a lowly constable).
The human rights act has virtually given the legal professions the ability to print their own money.
They will never allow anything to happen to their never ending cash machine.
A crime gets committed against the tax payer, the tax payer pays for police to investigate, prosecution to prosecute, defense solicitors to defend against it, judiciary to adjudicate and then probation to "rehabilitate". The tax payer is being totally suckered. Even more so when they discover they are supporting through dole and child support the very person who committed the crime and their successive offspring who will take their place. The biggest insult is to discover that "rehabilitation" is really just make believe, a fairy tale spread by "smoke and mirrors" left wingers.
There is a huge professional parasite industry that feeds off crime and the welfare state.
If the criminals were imprisoned (until they were safe to release), then that parasite would have no re offenders to feed off.
No politician, no judge and certainly no solicitor will ever let that happen.
If the price of a safer society was my job, I'd gladly pay and find a new profession (I'm a lowly constable).
The human rights act has virtually given the legal professions the ability to print their own money.
They will never allow anything to happen to their never ending cash machine.
A crime gets committed against the tax payer, the tax payer pays for police to investigate, prosecution to prosecute, defense solicitors to defend against it, judiciary to adjudicate and then probation to "rehabilitate". The tax payer is being totally suckered. Even more so when they discover they are supporting through dole and child support the very person who committed the crime and their successive offspring who will take their place. The biggest insult is to discover that "rehabilitation" is really just make believe, a fairy tale spread by "smoke and mirrors" left wingers.
# posted by : 12:53 AM, March 04, 2008
: 12:53 AM, March 04, 2008
As far as crime being down is concerned, I think this needs to be qualified and "reported and recorded crime".
I have been reading on the police 'blogs not only that many people no longer bother to report many types of crimes nowadays (because of the nature of the response they have received in the past, if any). I have also read on the same 'blogs that the target-meeting senior officers try to have have some categories of crimes discounted from their stats.
It's just like the days of the USSR , co-operative farms and all of that. The centre demands stats that will make the State machine look good -- nice figures to quote at Prime Minister's Questions -- and bribes and threats (usually in respect of funding) are used to cajole local senior officers to comply.
Thus we get the answer that the Government wants, not the answer that is true.
I have been reading on the police 'blogs not only that many people no longer bother to report many types of crimes nowadays (because of the nature of the response they have received in the past, if any). I have also read on the same 'blogs that the target-meeting senior officers try to have have some categories of crimes discounted from their stats.
It's just like the days of the USSR , co-operative farms and all of that. The centre demands stats that will make the State machine look good -- nice figures to quote at Prime Minister's Questions -- and bribes and threats (usually in respect of funding) are used to cajole local senior officers to comply.
Thus we get the answer that the Government wants, not the answer that is true.
If the population rises by 25% due to mass unchecked immigration, then it stands to reason that the infrastructure needs to increase by 25% also. Schools, hospitals, housing and prisons to name but a few.
Unfortunately if 50% of this new 25% are criminals and likely to end up in prison, then the increase in prison spaces needs to be more like 50% of what it is currently to absorb the strain.
You don't need to be Albert Einstein to work that out.
Unfortunately, if you are a politician/Guardian reading do-gooder and think it is somehow racist not to let every Tom, Dick and Mohammed (other foreign/non British names are available) into the country and bury your head in the sand and think that the population has only increased by 10%, then the results are what we see now.
Solution; Double the current number of prison spaces available and make inmates serve the FULL sentence.
Increase the length of sentences.
Check immigration before/even though, it is too late.
Unfortunately if 50% of this new 25% are criminals and likely to end up in prison, then the increase in prison spaces needs to be more like 50% of what it is currently to absorb the strain.
You don't need to be Albert Einstein to work that out.
Unfortunately, if you are a politician/Guardian reading do-gooder and think it is somehow racist not to let every Tom, Dick and Mohammed (other foreign/non British names are available) into the country and bury your head in the sand and think that the population has only increased by 10%, then the results are what we see now.
Solution; Double the current number of prison spaces available and make inmates serve the FULL sentence.
Increase the length of sentences.
Check immigration before/even though, it is too late.
# posted by : 11:19 AM, March 04, 2008
: 11:19 AM, March 04, 2008
My God, that is a terrible picture. Jailed for 3yrs for doing that to a 60-year-old lady?
When already out after serving 18mths for manslaughter?
Truly, what is this country coming to?
When already out after serving 18mths for manslaughter?
Truly, what is this country coming to?
# posted by : 11:21 AM, March 04, 2008
: 11:21 AM, March 04, 2008
I think I'm right in saying that the attack on Mrs Collins happened three miles from where Garry Newlove was kicked to death.
# posted by : 11:22 AM, March 04, 2008
: 11:22 AM, March 04, 2008
In reply to John Ward, that is exactly where we are at. The Government is only interested in being able to spout meaningless stats that show them as "Glorious leaders" whilst behind the scenes its all falling apart. Having personally seen the way the crime stats are manipulated to ensure we don't have to many of a certain type of offence recorded I lost all faith in managment and Politicians. Stronger sentances that are actually served WILL make the country safer along with an large increase in Police numbers.
# posted by : 11:33 AM, March 04, 2008
: 11:33 AM, March 04, 2008
I think part of the solution needs to involve criminals having to work in prison to pay for the cost of their crime.
There should be opporunities for them to improve themselves by study etc, but the fact is they are criminals and owe a debt to society and their victims.
Currently, this is debt is not being fully (or even remotely) paid.
There should be opporunities for them to improve themselves by study etc, but the fact is they are criminals and owe a debt to society and their victims.
Currently, this is debt is not being fully (or even remotely) paid.
simg:
'I think part of the solution needs to involve criminals having to work in prison to pay for the cost of their crime'
How about just shooting the b'stards dead. Thats the whole of the solution!
'I think part of the solution needs to involve criminals having to work in prison to pay for the cost of their crime'
How about just shooting the b'stards dead. Thats the whole of the solution!
# posted by : 2:31 PM, March 04, 2008
: 2:31 PM, March 04, 2008
I'm with Simg: ALL inmates should work, the "pay" should go to their victims or back in to the system for bed & board.
ALL foriegn prisoners (illegals or here legally) should be shipped out to their country of origin at point of sentence - why should we pay to keep them.
The country needs to opt out of Human Rights, especially as criminals have more rights than the victim.
Community service can work - dress them in something distinctive - so people know what they are doing. Get them in the parks, cleaning the streets etc.
New immigration law - too little too late!
ALL foriegn prisoners (illegals or here legally) should be shipped out to their country of origin at point of sentence - why should we pay to keep them.
The country needs to opt out of Human Rights, especially as criminals have more rights than the victim.
Community service can work - dress them in something distinctive - so people know what they are doing. Get them in the parks, cleaning the streets etc.
New immigration law - too little too late!
# posted by : 5:18 PM, March 04, 2008
: 5:18 PM, March 04, 2008
Take a look at the pages and pages of small ads for parasite lawyers in the prisoners' tabloid Inside Time. Who told you there's no money in legal aid?
# posted by : 5:22 PM, March 04, 2008
: 5:22 PM, March 04, 2008
Bring back the deat penalty... if they are dead then they cost no money and take up no cell space and will never re-offend again.
# posted by : 6:24 PM, March 04, 2008
: 6:24 PM, March 04, 2008
I agree with the above. I was discussing this with my mother on "mother's day" of all times. I proposed the answer to crime was strickingly simple and I'd accept any of the following:
1. The death penalty
2. Deportation to some island somewhere far away where they can't get back.
3. Enforced slave labour in the gulag in order to really "pay their debt to society"
Having been burgaled twice, had my mobile stolen from my desk, had my 50cc moped attempted theft twice, had breaking and entering into a house I rent out, had my car stolen (all in the last 2 years) I've given up all hope on helping offenders. Get them away from civilised people asap, and for a very long time.
1. The death penalty
2. Deportation to some island somewhere far away where they can't get back.
3. Enforced slave labour in the gulag in order to really "pay their debt to society"
Having been burgaled twice, had my mobile stolen from my desk, had my 50cc moped attempted theft twice, had breaking and entering into a house I rent out, had my car stolen (all in the last 2 years) I've given up all hope on helping offenders. Get them away from civilised people asap, and for a very long time.
# posted by : 7:13 PM, March 04, 2008
: 7:13 PM, March 04, 2008
No wishy washy community service rubbish. These people, whether home grown or imported scroats and criminals understand one thing. Violence. Well time to readdress the balance in favour of the law abiding.
Hang them! Problem solved.
Hang them! Problem solved.
# posted by : 7:43 PM, March 04, 2008
: 7:43 PM, March 04, 2008
I think crime really is down a bit BUT it is because we have so many prolific offenders locked up. The prisons don't get full by themselves we do do it.... Too many jouralists lawyers and, I am afraid to say, some people on this blog seem to forget that we have managed to lock up loads more peole than 10 years ago (not enough though) Some one will now mention Tony Martin, He was a deranged sad old man who happened to do one thing right but it could just have easily have been his next door neighbour he slotted by accident,
I think the idea of paying for third world nations to hold mid and long term prisoners is a good one. It would cost a lot less (we could give the transport contract to EasyJet). Even if people did escape they would still have to make their way home. Those that made it may have learn't somthing on the way, and it would give hard currency to countries that need it. HMP Freetown Siera Leone has a nice ring to it.
I think the idea of paying for third world nations to hold mid and long term prisoners is a good one. It would cost a lot less (we could give the transport contract to EasyJet). Even if people did escape they would still have to make their way home. Those that made it may have learn't somthing on the way, and it would give hard currency to countries that need it. HMP Freetown Siera Leone has a nice ring to it.
# posted by : 9:05 PM, March 04, 2008
: 9:05 PM, March 04, 2008
Just announced, this little gem...the Govt are increasing the amount they pay to 'encourage' foreign prisoners to return to their home country once they have served their sentences here. The increase is up to £3000 and represents 'good value for money' to the taxpayer.
Laughing all the way to the bank.
Laughing all the way to the bank.
# posted by : 8:24 AM, March 05, 2008
: 8:24 AM, March 05, 2008
Several years ago we had a Federation general meeting with a local MP (who is a barrister), several county and local councillors, including members of the Police authority, in attendance.
One of the suggestions put forward by a DS, who is also a qualified lawyer, was that any immigrant to this country who is found guilty of a recordable offence, is sentenced to a term of imprisonment which is suspended. The offender, plus any dependants, is then deported back to the country of origin. Any of the dependants wishing to return to this country must then apply from their own country. If the offender subsequently returns to this country, legally or otherwise, the prison sentence is then carried out. This saves the UK taxpayer the cost of incarceration, any benefits paid to the dependants plus a sign to others what may face them if they commit crime. The MP and County Councillors actually smiled at the naivity shown by the officer that such a sensible solution could find its way onto the statute books. As mentioned earlier, there are too many people with fingers in other pies to allow this to happen.
On another tack, the press are talking about a visiting American Police chief who suggests zero tolerance but rehabilitation in prison. Stick and Carrot?
Plodnomore
One of the suggestions put forward by a DS, who is also a qualified lawyer, was that any immigrant to this country who is found guilty of a recordable offence, is sentenced to a term of imprisonment which is suspended. The offender, plus any dependants, is then deported back to the country of origin. Any of the dependants wishing to return to this country must then apply from their own country. If the offender subsequently returns to this country, legally or otherwise, the prison sentence is then carried out. This saves the UK taxpayer the cost of incarceration, any benefits paid to the dependants plus a sign to others what may face them if they commit crime. The MP and County Councillors actually smiled at the naivity shown by the officer that such a sensible solution could find its way onto the statute books. As mentioned earlier, there are too many people with fingers in other pies to allow this to happen.
On another tack, the press are talking about a visiting American Police chief who suggests zero tolerance but rehabilitation in prison. Stick and Carrot?
Plodnomore
# posted by : 9:52 PM, March 05, 2008
: 9:52 PM, March 05, 2008
as long as the government and papers accept that approach and you are actually allowed to use the stick....
The UK can't do a thing about immigration. It is totally controlled by the EU.
# posted by : 7:11 PM, March 07, 2008
: 7:11 PM, March 07, 2008
I work in two open prisons where we're all about rehabilitation and reintegration but these are guys who've done time in closed nicks and given society a break. It's a risk game and we don't always get sent the right prisoners but when we get well-motivated guys we're able to help them get on a good path.
However in spite of approving of our regime including home leaves of one week in four, I'm not a total softy.
I think we need to imprison at least as many if not more offenders than we do to give potential victims a break. But not just for that reason.
As a prison chaplain I have heard many many former drug users tell me, "I'd be dead if I hadn't got the jail". Community service is pie in the sky for people who need saving from themselves by swift removal from their home patch and their suppliers/off sales.
However in spite of approving of our regime including home leaves of one week in four, I'm not a total softy.
I think we need to imprison at least as many if not more offenders than we do to give potential victims a break. But not just for that reason.
As a prison chaplain I have heard many many former drug users tell me, "I'd be dead if I hadn't got the jail". Community service is pie in the sky for people who need saving from themselves by swift removal from their home patch and their suppliers/off sales.
Did 36 years City/County CID and No.s 2 and 3 RCS's. What an absolute dismal state many current Police Leaders have allowed to develop. Strong truthful voices required at the top, an immediate 40% increase in Authorised Establisments, less policewomen and PSO's in front line roles, and more and more porridge for those faithful to lawbreaking
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# posted by : 9:03 AM, July 04, 2008
: 9:03 AM, July 04, 2008
