Monday, January 28, 2008
A Rare Insight
Sheila Fogarty, who sounds like a good egg, broadcasts alongside the rampaging ego of Nicky Campbell on BBC Radio Five Live each weekday morning.
This blog, and others, have long argued that Britain is becoming a country of two crime rates.
In good areas, crime is still rare enough to make the papers.
In the sprawling council estates and grey tower blocks of our major cities, however, elderly people, the poor and the weak suffer hellish lives. It's no exaggeration to say that millions of people in Britain are afraid to leave their homes at night, and do so reluctantly during the day.
Police officers have long known all of this (along with what needs to be done to change it).
Unfortunately, newspaper editors and columnists, government ministers, judges and broadcasters generally live in the nice areas. They either don't believe things are all that bad, or they don't care, and they are the ones who decide how the rest of us live.
If we could move Polly Toynbee, Jacqui Smith, Gordon Brown and his young family (and a random 200 other MPs), Sir Ian Blair, Alan Rusbridger, Mark Thompson, all of our judges and magistrates, the Newsnight team, all Five Live presenters, Jim Naughtie, the Observer newsdesk and Jeremy Hardy and spread them around the tower blocks of London, Liverpool and Manchester and make them catch the bus to work in local chippies and bookies and Bargain Boozes for, say, a year, THEN we might see some changes when they returned to their old habitats.
It's unlikely to happen, sadly.
However, the aforementioned Ms Fogarty was on the radio this morning talking about a TV show she has made which is apparently being broadcast tonight (if anyone knows which show, please say so in the comments - I missed it).
In an attempt to find out whether Jacqui Smith was right not to want to walk around Hackney after midnight (answer: Yes, and you don't need a TV crew to find out), she went up to Liverpool, her home town, and started asking people.
She explained how after she approached a group ('I won't say gang') of six or seven youths to ask permission to film them, the street was suddenly blocked off at both ends by two more 'groups' of 20 or so youths. They proceeded to bottle them. 'The thing that astonished me,' said Sheila (I'm paraphrasing), 'was that there were ordinary people there... mums in pushchairs and so on and there's all this glass everywhere.'
They got the hell out of there immediately.
Shortly afterwards, they plotted up in another street and tried to ask another group of kids if they could interview them. As they stood there, a car cruised slowly past, the window came out and a man pointed a pistol at them. 'There was a police CCTV van only 15 metres away,' said Sheila, a note of incredulity in her voice. 'It was so brazen. And this is five minutes from where I went to school.'
This tells the uninitiated (of whom Sheila was obviously one) several things:
1. CCTV cameras don't really work as a deterrent.
2. Criminal gangs in Liverpool are not all that frightened of the police (or what will happen to them if they're caught).
3. Yobs who throw bottles at TV crews don't care if they blind, or even kill, young children.
4. Whatever successive governments say, things are getting much worse (hence Sheila's incredulity that this could happen 'five minutes from where I went to school').
5. Kids who went to Sheila's school are perhaps less likely to follow her into the national media , or any decent job, than they were a few years ago.
6. Sheila and her TV crew were able to get the hell out of there and now have some nice war stories to tell in the bars of Notting Hill (or wherever). But the mums who dodged those flying bottles are there today, and they'll be there tomorrow and for the next six months, and six years.
As I said, police officers know what needs to be done.
FOXTROT OSCAR
This blog, and others, have long argued that Britain is becoming a country of two crime rates.
In good areas, crime is still rare enough to make the papers.
In the sprawling council estates and grey tower blocks of our major cities, however, elderly people, the poor and the weak suffer hellish lives. It's no exaggeration to say that millions of people in Britain are afraid to leave their homes at night, and do so reluctantly during the day.
Police officers have long known all of this (along with what needs to be done to change it).
Unfortunately, newspaper editors and columnists, government ministers, judges and broadcasters generally live in the nice areas. They either don't believe things are all that bad, or they don't care, and they are the ones who decide how the rest of us live.
If we could move Polly Toynbee, Jacqui Smith, Gordon Brown and his young family (and a random 200 other MPs), Sir Ian Blair, Alan Rusbridger, Mark Thompson, all of our judges and magistrates, the Newsnight team, all Five Live presenters, Jim Naughtie, the Observer newsdesk and Jeremy Hardy and spread them around the tower blocks of London, Liverpool and Manchester and make them catch the bus to work in local chippies and bookies and Bargain Boozes for, say, a year, THEN we might see some changes when they returned to their old habitats.
It's unlikely to happen, sadly.
However, the aforementioned Ms Fogarty was on the radio this morning talking about a TV show she has made which is apparently being broadcast tonight (if anyone knows which show, please say so in the comments - I missed it).
In an attempt to find out whether Jacqui Smith was right not to want to walk around Hackney after midnight (answer: Yes, and you don't need a TV crew to find out), she went up to Liverpool, her home town, and started asking people.
She explained how after she approached a group ('I won't say gang') of six or seven youths to ask permission to film them, the street was suddenly blocked off at both ends by two more 'groups' of 20 or so youths. They proceeded to bottle them. 'The thing that astonished me,' said Sheila (I'm paraphrasing), 'was that there were ordinary people there... mums in pushchairs and so on and there's all this glass everywhere.'
They got the hell out of there immediately.
Shortly afterwards, they plotted up in another street and tried to ask another group of kids if they could interview them. As they stood there, a car cruised slowly past, the window came out and a man pointed a pistol at them. 'There was a police CCTV van only 15 metres away,' said Sheila, a note of incredulity in her voice. 'It was so brazen. And this is five minutes from where I went to school.'
This tells the uninitiated (of whom Sheila was obviously one) several things:
1. CCTV cameras don't really work as a deterrent.
2. Criminal gangs in Liverpool are not all that frightened of the police (or what will happen to them if they're caught).
3. Yobs who throw bottles at TV crews don't care if they blind, or even kill, young children.
4. Whatever successive governments say, things are getting much worse (hence Sheila's incredulity that this could happen 'five minutes from where I went to school').
5. Kids who went to Sheila's school are perhaps less likely to follow her into the national media , or any decent job, than they were a few years ago.
6. Sheila and her TV crew were able to get the hell out of there and now have some nice war stories to tell in the bars of Notting Hill (or wherever). But the mums who dodged those flying bottles are there today, and they'll be there tomorrow and for the next six months, and six years.
As I said, police officers know what needs to be done.
FOXTROT OSCAR
Comments:
"police officers know what needs to be done", yeah and I'm the Queen Of Sheba
# posted by 
: 10:00 AM, January 28, 2008
: 10:00 AM, January 28, 2008
Probably the UK Channel 4 program dispatches 20H00 tonight.
I forecast much backing music and avoidance of obvious conclusions. Furthermore that the interviewees will not accurately reflect the relative proportions by ethnicity of the perpetrators of the offences discussed.
I forecast much backing music and avoidance of obvious conclusions. Furthermore that the interviewees will not accurately reflect the relative proportions by ethnicity of the perpetrators of the offences discussed.
# posted by : 10:02 AM, January 28, 2008
: 10:02 AM, January 28, 2008
Foxtrot, could you provide your solutions and prove Her Majesty wrong?
# posted by : 10:07 AM, January 28, 2008
: 10:07 AM, January 28, 2008
It's the Tonight programme on ITV at 8pm.
Dispatches is on a similar theme though.
Dispatches is on a similar theme though.
# posted by : 10:31 AM, January 28, 2008
: 10:31 AM, January 28, 2008
knowing what needs to be done and being able to actually do them are the main reasons that no one in this country trust us anymore. The people used to own the streets and the Police were the ones charged and trusted with keeping those who would seek to upset the majority in line - usually with a significant kicking - just to emphasise that no one wanted them around.
Theodore Roosevelt said nearly 100 years ago "speak softly but carry a big stick" Well.... we've got the sticks but all we can do nowadays is speak softly. Things are only going to get worse and the longer the great liberal experiment of not punishing those who commit crimes against us goes on, the bigger and more severe the backlash is going to be before it swings back the other way and the people of this country have the society that 99% of us want but lost some 40 odd years ago.
Theodore Roosevelt said nearly 100 years ago "speak softly but carry a big stick" Well.... we've got the sticks but all we can do nowadays is speak softly. Things are only going to get worse and the longer the great liberal experiment of not punishing those who commit crimes against us goes on, the bigger and more severe the backlash is going to be before it swings back the other way and the people of this country have the society that 99% of us want but lost some 40 odd years ago.
can't you serving policemen and women come up with a blog or article about specifically what should be done to change policing to make it work properly (anonymously if necessary)? we, the great British public, don't have a clue about what the real problems are and how in practice things could be changed
# posted by : 1:07 PM, January 28, 2008
: 1:07 PM, January 28, 2008
Did Sheila report all the crimes that she witnessed, I wonder?
The British Crime Survey site is too cunning to be understood, but if anyone can puzzle out if it has figures for the number of potential respondents who replied "I don't want any trouble" or a less polite variant, then I'd be very interested to read them.
Based on the available evidence, the only reason I'd bother reporting - or cooperating in the investigation of - a low grade crime is if I had to for insurance or compensation purposes, and I'd even think twice before getting a crime number for a burglary, given the negative consequences of doing so. It really doesn't seem like it's worthwhile any more.
The British Crime Survey site is too cunning to be understood, but if anyone can puzzle out if it has figures for the number of potential respondents who replied "I don't want any trouble" or a less polite variant, then I'd be very interested to read them.
Based on the available evidence, the only reason I'd bother reporting - or cooperating in the investigation of - a low grade crime is if I had to for insurance or compensation purposes, and I'd even think twice before getting a crime number for a burglary, given the negative consequences of doing so. It really doesn't seem like it's worthwhile any more.
In answer to Terry, policing generally does work. Us current coppers know who the troublemakers are, as have coppers known in ages past. We deal with the same people day in, day out. That is the real problem. We catch criminals daily yet the criminal justice system, which reflects the presiding government's attitude, is very lenient towards criminals. Therefore there is no fear (or respect, call it what you will) of the courts and by extension, the police, and criminals will continue to commit crime. Of course, the breakdown of real family values has a lot to do with criminal behaviour but the police cannot profoundly change society. Everyone must do that.
# posted by : 1:25 PM, January 28, 2008
: 1:25 PM, January 28, 2008
If these reporters had such a hard time - why didn't they speak to the Police???
The ICliverpool site has the story including comments from Merseyside Police...tells quite a different tale BUT that doesn't make good viewing or story telling does it.
For the record I'm Liverpool born and bred - I walked the streets (sounds great that part!!) safely all of my life. The only time I was a victim of crime was in a seaside town in North Yorkshire!!!
The ICliverpool site has the story including comments from Merseyside Police...tells quite a different tale BUT that doesn't make good viewing or story telling does it.
For the record I'm Liverpool born and bred - I walked the streets (sounds great that part!!) safely all of my life. The only time I was a victim of crime was in a seaside town in North Yorkshire!!!
The problems lies across the board. We, as serving Police officers, must also take some of the blame. The people who make it into the echelons of the SMT are rarely "robust" coppers who are happy to wade in to stop a fight or tell a person on their umpteenth domestic to "wind their neck in". All too often those who make it to Inspector and above are liberal "yes" men and women, more suited to a role in the ever more pathetic probation service or social services. I've lost count of the number of times my guvnor has praised my robust approach and yet still holds it against me when I apply for a board in another department.
We can't have it both ways. A return to common sense Criminal Justice is long overdue. We need to punish criminals as it is clear that "rehabilitation" has failed spectacularly.
A further thing I don't get is that our prisons are allegedly full but any copper worth his salt will tell you getting someone potted is almost impossible. I've seen people on their fifth set of burglary dwellings still walk free on a referral order. Who the hell is in prison?
Maybe it's the pensioners that can't afford to pay their poll tax?
We can't have it both ways. A return to common sense Criminal Justice is long overdue. We need to punish criminals as it is clear that "rehabilitation" has failed spectacularly.
A further thing I don't get is that our prisons are allegedly full but any copper worth his salt will tell you getting someone potted is almost impossible. I've seen people on their fifth set of burglary dwellings still walk free on a referral order. Who the hell is in prison?
Maybe it's the pensioners that can't afford to pay their poll tax?
# posted by : 2:39 PM, January 28, 2008
: 2:39 PM, January 28, 2008
According to this Beeb article about Fogarty getting a gun pointed at her, it'll be on Tonight with Trevor MacDonald.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7212556.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7212556.stm
# posted by : 3:07 PM, January 28, 2008
: 3:07 PM, January 28, 2008
"If we could move Polly Toynbee, Jacqui Smith, Gordon Brown and his young family (and a random 200 other MPs), Sir Ian Blair, Alan Rusbridger, Mark Thompson, all of our judges and magistrates, the Newsnight team, all Five Live presenters, Jim Naughtie, the Observer newsdesk and Jeremy Hardy and spread them around the tower blocks of London, Liverpool and Manchester and make them catch the bus to work in local chippies and bookies and Bargain Boozes for, say, a year"
-----
What an excellent idea.
So then ... Michael Portillo for PM?
-----
What an excellent idea.
So then ... Michael Portillo for PM?
# posted by : 4:46 PM, January 28, 2008
: 4:46 PM, January 28, 2008
>I've seen people on their fifth set of burglary dwellings still walk free on a referral order. Who the hell is in prison?
The most recent figures that I can find are for March 2007.
Have a look for yourself. Violence against the person remains ever popular, followed by drug offences. Robbery and burglary both come on top of sexual offences. The tantalisingly vague "Other" dwarfs theft + handling, fraud and forgery and motoring offences. "Offence not recorded" brings up the rear - I hope someone knows what they're in for.
The most recent figures that I can find are for March 2007.
Have a look for yourself. Violence against the person remains ever popular, followed by drug offences. Robbery and burglary both come on top of sexual offences. The tantalisingly vague "Other" dwarfs theft + handling, fraud and forgery and motoring offences. "Offence not recorded" brings up the rear - I hope someone knows what they're in for.
Polly Toynbee actually did go and live in a tower block a few years ago. The result was a book, "Hard Work: Life in Low Pay Britain" - it's an interesting read.
... Polly Toynbee actually did go and live in a tower block a few years ago. ...
I would hazard a guess that she did not take her children out of private school though, which they reportedly attended.
I would hazard a guess that she did not take her children out of private school though, which they reportedly attended.
# posted by : 7:57 PM, January 28, 2008
: 7:57 PM, January 28, 2008
You forgot that numpty, Paul Routledge from the daily mirror.
# posted by : 7:57 PM, January 28, 2008
: 7:57 PM, January 28, 2008
I believe the Romans had a phrase for what works. Fear, not kindness restrains the wicked. Metus improbos compescit, non clementia
# posted by : 9:09 PM, January 28, 2008
: 9:09 PM, January 28, 2008
I also read that disgraceful article by Paul Routledge in the Daily Mirror.
What i would like to know is how can a national newspaper be allowed to print blatant lies??
Fair enough if he doesnt agree with police protesting and doesnt agree with us getting a pay rise. I have no argument about someone having a differing opinion if the put together a balanced sound argument based on FACT.
The article was disgraceful and unfortunately some members of the public who know no better read that rubbish and believe in it.
I for one will never buy that paper again
What i would like to know is how can a national newspaper be allowed to print blatant lies??
Fair enough if he doesnt agree with police protesting and doesnt agree with us getting a pay rise. I have no argument about someone having a differing opinion if the put together a balanced sound argument based on FACT.
The article was disgraceful and unfortunately some members of the public who know no better read that rubbish and believe in it.
I for one will never buy that paper again
# posted by : 10:24 PM, January 28, 2008
: 10:24 PM, January 28, 2008
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/routledge/
the above is the web address for Daily Mirror Paul Routledge column
the above is the web address for Daily Mirror Paul Routledge column
# posted by : 10:26 PM, January 28, 2008
: 10:26 PM, January 28, 2008
I have read Routledge's article and it is worthy of the late great Dr Goebbels himself. Then again so many of NuLabour and its supporters seem to have a degree in disinformation that it should come as no surprise. I wonder who he will call when he is mugged or burgled .... my guess is it won't be the anybody other than the Police
Stay safe, I am off to foreign parts
Jurgen.
Stay safe, I am off to foreign parts
Jurgen.
# posted by : 10:48 PM, January 28, 2008
: 10:48 PM, January 28, 2008
Since when have newspapers, especially the tabloids, been about reporting the truth?
Each on should be sold with a little blue salt bag!
Each on should be sold with a little blue salt bag!
# posted by : 7:55 AM, January 29, 2008
: 7:55 AM, January 29, 2008
I enjoy reading the various PC blogs but I may have to stop some time soon as they are a bit depressing reading them. To many politicians from all sides appear to be corrupt lying fools and the Police are powerless to stop the breakdown of civilised society due to them.
Perhaps if the Police could muster up the same numbers to march again, this time with the aim of telling the politicains what they can do with there paperwork and targets maybe something will be done.
If police officers know what needs to be done then surely they are in the best position to bring this about.
The only sections of the public you wont have the full support of is the chavs, criminals and Guardain readers. Maybe The Mirror readers too but thats only about 20people anyway.
Perhaps if the Police could muster up the same numbers to march again, this time with the aim of telling the politicains what they can do with there paperwork and targets maybe something will be done.
If police officers know what needs to be done then surely they are in the best position to bring this about.
The only sections of the public you wont have the full support of is the chavs, criminals and Guardain readers. Maybe The Mirror readers too but thats only about 20people anyway.
# posted by : 11:07 AM, January 29, 2008
: 11:07 AM, January 29, 2008
some years ago, we picked up a city slicker who had had is mobile phone and wallet taken at knife point, so we drove him around an estate just on the skirts of Kilburn. this bloke lived in Surrey somewhere, and as we drove down the road into the tenements, I kid you not, he cried "oh my god, people live here? It's like another world"
No mate... This is the real world!
No mate... This is the real world!
"To many politicians from all sides appear to be corrupt lying fools and the Police are powerless to stop the breakdown of civilised society due to them." - mancmonkey
Perhaps the various Police Constabularies could get together and arrest Parliament and try to install their own caretaker government. Even if it only lasted for a day or so it'd teach the politicians a lesson if the majority of public opinion was "About time."
Ah, but I'm just dreaming.
Perhaps the various Police Constabularies could get together and arrest Parliament and try to install their own caretaker government. Even if it only lasted for a day or so it'd teach the politicians a lesson if the majority of public opinion was "About time."
Ah, but I'm just dreaming.
# posted by : 10:59 PM, January 29, 2008
: 10:59 PM, January 29, 2008
"Criminal gangs in Liverpool are not all that frightened of the police"
on a related note, and it is a subtle one.
ever notice those police posters in shopping centre car parks, warning you about "hiding your valuables" and that "car thieves work in this area".
thereby instilling a sense of fear in joe public.
how come we never see anti-criminal posters, warning them of the CONSEQUENCES of robbing from a car?
on a related note, and it is a subtle one.
ever notice those police posters in shopping centre car parks, warning you about "hiding your valuables" and that "car thieves work in this area".
thereby instilling a sense of fear in joe public.
how come we never see anti-criminal posters, warning them of the CONSEQUENCES of robbing from a car?
Leobhan said...the Romans had a phrase for what works. "Fear not kindness restrains the wicked".
True, people generally do not fear the wrath of God, nor the breaking of the spiritual laws. But didn't the Roman Empire fall because the Romans BECAME wicked, living a life of cruelty, gluttony and debauchery? No doubt persecuting innocent people and throwing Christians to the lions caused considerable fear.
Yes, the yobs who hurt people need to be stopped, however a great deal of the BLAME for this sorry situation lays at the feet of ill considered government policy. They have been the architects of the disintegration of family and community life, AND discipline within the home and community.
The young do need to "fear" what will happen if they hurt others, but they ALSO need to be treated with kindness. Lead by example.
And I am not impressed with the Romans. Oh no! Big bullies who trampled on people in a cruel and ruthless way. Best to NOT follow their example, unless you actually want war and oppression.
PEACE AND LOVE RULES. O.K.
True, people generally do not fear the wrath of God, nor the breaking of the spiritual laws. But didn't the Roman Empire fall because the Romans BECAME wicked, living a life of cruelty, gluttony and debauchery? No doubt persecuting innocent people and throwing Christians to the lions caused considerable fear.
Yes, the yobs who hurt people need to be stopped, however a great deal of the BLAME for this sorry situation lays at the feet of ill considered government policy. They have been the architects of the disintegration of family and community life, AND discipline within the home and community.
The young do need to "fear" what will happen if they hurt others, but they ALSO need to be treated with kindness. Lead by example.
And I am not impressed with the Romans. Oh no! Big bullies who trampled on people in a cruel and ruthless way. Best to NOT follow their example, unless you actually want war and oppression.
PEACE AND LOVE RULES. O.K.
# posted by : 12:41 AM, January 30, 2008
: 12:41 AM, January 30, 2008
Im pretty sure the Romans were defeated because they were overwhelmed militarily and could not defend their borders from barbarian hordes, not because they were not members of the Labour Party. Secondly the Eastern half lasted for atleast another 500 years and they were just as decadent as the Western bit that was destroyed.
# posted by : 1:11 AM, January 30, 2008
: 1:11 AM, January 30, 2008
Well, the Western Roman Empire fell about a centuary or two after it converted to Christianity and put a stop to the practices it was most famous for. The Eastern Roman Empire, known more often as the Byzantine Empire, didn't fall until 1453, approximately a millenium later, when Constantinople(now Istanbul) was conquered by the ottoman turks.
# posted by : 3:06 AM, January 30, 2008
: 3:06 AM, January 30, 2008
"Police officers know what needs to be done". Well I hope so because government appear to have made a mess and created a lot of the problems. I hope that this "knowing what needs to be done" includes supporting mothers in reclaiming their "power" and authority over their own children. Plus advising social workers etc to "wind their necks back in", because they really DO cause more trouble and misinformation than is generally known. Sadly, and yet THEY do not appear to "fear" any consequences of their mistakes, or abuse done to innocent people.
These kids who roam the streets are bored and dissatisfied with life and the situation they are in. They have NO proper leadership and not much to do and nowhere to go. Treat them like a nuisance and with contempt and that is what they will return to society.
It's mothers who need to start the campaign to save our kids from ruin. The additives in food and drinks can cause aggression and the poor tend to be the buyers of this junk. Red meats cause more aggression. Feeling threatened WILL cause an aggresssive reaction.
FEAR CAN CAUSE A VIOLENT REACTION.
FEAR IS AN ABSENCE OF FAITH.
These kids are little lost sheep who need moral and spiritual guidance. A lifeline, to pull them out of the black hole they are in.
Calling upon, and faith in the spiritual forces of good, Angels, really CAN protect and work miracles. But you have to ask, and be sincere in your request for help in times of trouble, or danger. And remember to say thanks.
These kids who roam the streets are bored and dissatisfied with life and the situation they are in. They have NO proper leadership and not much to do and nowhere to go. Treat them like a nuisance and with contempt and that is what they will return to society.
It's mothers who need to start the campaign to save our kids from ruin. The additives in food and drinks can cause aggression and the poor tend to be the buyers of this junk. Red meats cause more aggression. Feeling threatened WILL cause an aggresssive reaction.
FEAR CAN CAUSE A VIOLENT REACTION.
FEAR IS AN ABSENCE OF FAITH.
These kids are little lost sheep who need moral and spiritual guidance. A lifeline, to pull them out of the black hole they are in.
Calling upon, and faith in the spiritual forces of good, Angels, really CAN protect and work miracles. But you have to ask, and be sincere in your request for help in times of trouble, or danger. And remember to say thanks.
# posted by : 7:59 AM, January 30, 2008
: 7:59 AM, January 30, 2008
"...how come we never see anti-criminal posters, warning them of the CONSEQUENCES of robbing from a car?"
Because the Advertising Standards Authority wouldn't pass them, as they aren't 'truthful', perhaps...?
Because the Advertising Standards Authority wouldn't pass them, as they aren't 'truthful', perhaps...?
Ve, I'm all for having faith and believing in something bigger than yourself, whether that is a religious belief or not, its down to the person involved. You're absolutely right that parents (not just mothers) need to regain control of their children without fear of oppression or scorn from the state, humans have lived in a societal structure for the best part of 20,000 years without governments telling them how they should raise their kids. I would love nothing more than to not be called on to run peoples lives for them because they can't be arsed or feel its not their job, and I'm certain the majority of my colleagues will say the same thing.
Without respect for the people and world around them (and fear of consequences such as starving to death for stealing others food, or being killed for attacking someone needlessly) then we face the anarchy that we are seeing ourselves in now. You can't solve all the worlds problems by being nice to everyone, at least 2% of the population are clinical sociopaths at any one time, it is fear of getting caught and punished that stops the few of those sociopaths that would do what they want from acting on their impulses. Punishment should do two things, firstly punish the person who committed the crime in such a way that they never want to do it again and secondly reinforce to everyone else that crime will not be tolerated.
And as for red meat causes aggression.... humans (more specifically males) are naturally aggressive, that's how we became the dominant species on the planet by killing everything else that threatened our ancestors so we could live. We're omnivores and need the nutrients, proteins and vitamins found in meat and the best source is wild red meat so I'm afraid that one is bollocks. A vegan could not survive healthily for more than a few months in an open hunter/gatherer environment. Aggression is controlled by rules and boundaries, not by stopping people eating healthy natural food instead of junk like McD's or Unlucky-Fried-Kitten.
Without respect for the people and world around them (and fear of consequences such as starving to death for stealing others food, or being killed for attacking someone needlessly) then we face the anarchy that we are seeing ourselves in now. You can't solve all the worlds problems by being nice to everyone, at least 2% of the population are clinical sociopaths at any one time, it is fear of getting caught and punished that stops the few of those sociopaths that would do what they want from acting on their impulses. Punishment should do two things, firstly punish the person who committed the crime in such a way that they never want to do it again and secondly reinforce to everyone else that crime will not be tolerated.
And as for red meat causes aggression.... humans (more specifically males) are naturally aggressive, that's how we became the dominant species on the planet by killing everything else that threatened our ancestors so we could live. We're omnivores and need the nutrients, proteins and vitamins found in meat and the best source is wild red meat so I'm afraid that one is bollocks. A vegan could not survive healthily for more than a few months in an open hunter/gatherer environment. Aggression is controlled by rules and boundaries, not by stopping people eating healthy natural food instead of junk like McD's or Unlucky-Fried-Kitten.
Prisons of Straw....
It's in the papers today - Jack Straw is major back-pedalling on the building of the three "titan super-jails" he promised...
You know those ones that were going to house 2500 inmates...the announcement that stopped Labour being crucified for lack of prison spaces..
It's in the papers today - Jack Straw is major back-pedalling on the building of the three "titan super-jails" he promised...
You know those ones that were going to house 2500 inmates...the announcement that stopped Labour being crucified for lack of prison spaces..
# posted by : 10:32 AM, January 30, 2008
: 10:32 AM, January 30, 2008
So which is it?
Sat about wasting time on pointless paperwork,
or
heroicly tackling armed terrorists and criminals?
There seems to be some contradiction.
Sat about wasting time on pointless paperwork,
or
heroicly tackling armed terrorists and criminals?
There seems to be some contradiction.
# posted by : 5:59 PM, January 30, 2008
: 5:59 PM, January 30, 2008
It's a bit of both, mate.
Heroically tackling armed robbers when we're out of the nick, but most of the time inside the nick doing paperwork.
Does that answer your question?
Heroically tackling armed robbers when we're out of the nick, but most of the time inside the nick doing paperwork.
Does that answer your question?
# posted by : 6:15 PM, January 30, 2008
: 6:15 PM, January 30, 2008
It`s a combination of various things that have brought society to where we`re at. Five Live mentioned that the Government had not been prepared for the consequences of 10 years worth of open borders. The debate was about midwives and the health service.
Well, mutiply that lack of awareness for every other thing they`re supposed to be responsible for. Including prisons.
This government has the same approach to everything, and everywhere it`s applied is now starting to unravel and fall apart because the approach is plain wrong.
I don`t suggest a completely opposite approach is better but somewhere in the middle is a balance that needs to be struck.
Instead there are certain absolutes now enshrined in law that frequently lead to some lunatic situations. Human Rights Act for one (intention good, actual effects completely out of whack and protecting rapists and murderers etc). You can name your own favourites.
I don`t think it`s me, things really are getting much worse?
Well, mutiply that lack of awareness for every other thing they`re supposed to be responsible for. Including prisons.
This government has the same approach to everything, and everywhere it`s applied is now starting to unravel and fall apart because the approach is plain wrong.
I don`t suggest a completely opposite approach is better but somewhere in the middle is a balance that needs to be struck.
Instead there are certain absolutes now enshrined in law that frequently lead to some lunatic situations. Human Rights Act for one (intention good, actual effects completely out of whack and protecting rapists and murderers etc). You can name your own favourites.
I don`t think it`s me, things really are getting much worse?
Anon 6-15 :
When out of the nick heroically persecuting motorists and lot's of trivial rubbish Section 5 "detections" - at least be honest.
When out of the nick heroically persecuting motorists and lot's of trivial rubbish Section 5 "detections" - at least be honest.
# posted by : 10:15 PM, January 30, 2008
: 10:15 PM, January 30, 2008
MetCountyMounty. Yes, I do understand that we cannot solve the world's problems by being nice to everyone. [You should hear me BELLOW when one of my kids has been out of order...and some of their mates...apparently I "frightened" some of them!]
No, one cannot be "nice" to everyone, as some are just plain nasty, devious, wicked etc. Some of whom, a very long time ago, were paedophiles in the judiciary, who used fear to control their victims and make them keep silent. I wasn't very "nice" to them at all, but the govt of the day were.
Through family connections some of their superior officers from WW2 were enlisted to give them an army style "beasting" via an S.A.S. swoop on them. They took them up a mountain, in winter, took all their clothes and shoes, and left them there, naked, to find their own way home! Oh how I laughed.
Myself and family were in the greatest danger because of those evil bas***ds and I was especially grateful to the S.A.S for "dealing" with them. Thanks to their intervention, we survived, I survived to complete my "mission". God bless them.
Anyway.....
Not that I'm one to argue needlessly, however the red meat thing. Well, we are no longer "hunter gatherers", although men do still have that instinct and replaced it with WARS!
Mind you some women can get an attack of "trolly rage" in the supermarket come a bank holiday stampede for bread etc.
All the cattle farming creates MORE gasses which are the cause of global warming, than all the cars, power stations and other energy use put together. You ask Sir Paul McCartney - he said so on telly. We as a species would be doing OURSELVES the greatest favour by giving up red meats. And IF the survival of the planet and ourselves actually depended upon it, well, it's not a lot to ask for, is it?
Not that Mucki Dee's would agree with me. It's big business and they are only interested in their profits, today, and do not care about the future, never mind what's best for humanity. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be vegan, but spiritually speaking that IS better for us.
This govt could create the "beef-burger police" to save this planet and humanity. But I suspect that they would rather punish us all with taxes and continue to destroy the very fabric of society, rather than do the RIGHT thing.
Oh God, self realization...I'm just as cynical as you lot ;0)
No, one cannot be "nice" to everyone, as some are just plain nasty, devious, wicked etc. Some of whom, a very long time ago, were paedophiles in the judiciary, who used fear to control their victims and make them keep silent. I wasn't very "nice" to them at all, but the govt of the day were.
Through family connections some of their superior officers from WW2 were enlisted to give them an army style "beasting" via an S.A.S. swoop on them. They took them up a mountain, in winter, took all their clothes and shoes, and left them there, naked, to find their own way home! Oh how I laughed.
Myself and family were in the greatest danger because of those evil bas***ds and I was especially grateful to the S.A.S for "dealing" with them. Thanks to their intervention, we survived, I survived to complete my "mission". God bless them.
Anyway.....
Not that I'm one to argue needlessly, however the red meat thing. Well, we are no longer "hunter gatherers", although men do still have that instinct and replaced it with WARS!
Mind you some women can get an attack of "trolly rage" in the supermarket come a bank holiday stampede for bread etc.
All the cattle farming creates MORE gasses which are the cause of global warming, than all the cars, power stations and other energy use put together. You ask Sir Paul McCartney - he said so on telly. We as a species would be doing OURSELVES the greatest favour by giving up red meats. And IF the survival of the planet and ourselves actually depended upon it, well, it's not a lot to ask for, is it?
Not that Mucki Dee's would agree with me. It's big business and they are only interested in their profits, today, and do not care about the future, never mind what's best for humanity. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be vegan, but spiritually speaking that IS better for us.
This govt could create the "beef-burger police" to save this planet and humanity. But I suspect that they would rather punish us all with taxes and continue to destroy the very fabric of society, rather than do the RIGHT thing.
Oh God, self realization...I'm just as cynical as you lot ;0)
# posted by : 1:57 AM, January 31, 2008
: 1:57 AM, January 31, 2008
P.S. MetCountyMounty.....
The thing about trying to be "nice" to everyone is based upon sound spiritual laws. God's law of peace, love and forgiveness.
Not easy I know, but REVENGE doesn't work. An eye for an eye etc is for GOD to deal with, not us. This has been misunderstood for far too long. It is the working out of karma, life after life through reincarnation.
Those "naughty judiciary" I mentioned, never forgave me for blowing the whistle on their wickedness. [and one was a shrink and very evil]
They were "monitored" after 1957, for the rest of their days to make sure that they behaved themselves. They hated me for that and behind the scenes "marked my card", got me by slander via the system's records. Bas***ds. They made my "job" very difficult for 50 YEARS. [It's a good job that I'm patient!]
Anyway, not content with that, oh no, some of them reincarnated in the early 80's and bloody well befriended MY KIDS. With the [soul] sole intention of trying to lead them astray, corrupt them, give them a bad name [and me] and generally destroy my family and screw up the mission. 3 of them have been "seen off", but 3 still remain, doing their best to undermine me. So, having gone through all that crap, I do believe that forgiveness IS the only answer. I was forced to forgive my godfather cop as a kid and he really did spend the rest of his life regretting what he had done to me and others, AFTER the S.A.S. swoop and "beasting" and a prior kick in the nuts from me.
Just to make things crystal clear, God's message for humanity IS that paedophiles should be castrated by the lawful, surgical removal of their testicles, to stop this vile abuse of innocent children, which God finds unforgiveable. IT HAS TO STOP. If men behave like animals and violate children they need to LEARN that it will NOT be tolerated in the 21st century and beyond.
And there is to be NO MORE WARS.
Incidentally, the Romans may well have "converted" to Christianity, but they muddles the teachings and oppressed women.
Which ALSO has to STOP.
We are equal, but different, not less than, nor inferior, but complement each other, as equals.
I am just the messenger. Job Done.
The thing about trying to be "nice" to everyone is based upon sound spiritual laws. God's law of peace, love and forgiveness.
Not easy I know, but REVENGE doesn't work. An eye for an eye etc is for GOD to deal with, not us. This has been misunderstood for far too long. It is the working out of karma, life after life through reincarnation.
Those "naughty judiciary" I mentioned, never forgave me for blowing the whistle on their wickedness. [and one was a shrink and very evil]
They were "monitored" after 1957, for the rest of their days to make sure that they behaved themselves. They hated me for that and behind the scenes "marked my card", got me by slander via the system's records. Bas***ds. They made my "job" very difficult for 50 YEARS. [It's a good job that I'm patient!]
Anyway, not content with that, oh no, some of them reincarnated in the early 80's and bloody well befriended MY KIDS. With the [soul] sole intention of trying to lead them astray, corrupt them, give them a bad name [and me] and generally destroy my family and screw up the mission. 3 of them have been "seen off", but 3 still remain, doing their best to undermine me. So, having gone through all that crap, I do believe that forgiveness IS the only answer. I was forced to forgive my godfather cop as a kid and he really did spend the rest of his life regretting what he had done to me and others, AFTER the S.A.S. swoop and "beasting" and a prior kick in the nuts from me.
Just to make things crystal clear, God's message for humanity IS that paedophiles should be castrated by the lawful, surgical removal of their testicles, to stop this vile abuse of innocent children, which God finds unforgiveable. IT HAS TO STOP. If men behave like animals and violate children they need to LEARN that it will NOT be tolerated in the 21st century and beyond.
And there is to be NO MORE WARS.
Incidentally, the Romans may well have "converted" to Christianity, but they muddles the teachings and oppressed women.
Which ALSO has to STOP.
We are equal, but different, not less than, nor inferior, but complement each other, as equals.
I am just the messenger. Job Done.
# posted by : 3:12 AM, January 31, 2008
: 3:12 AM, January 31, 2008
....And that should have read...The Romans MUDDLED the teachings of Christ and oppressed women. But that's the devil for you, he delighted in lies and misinformation to CAUSE trouble and suffering. He "muddled" bits of Islam too. Good job his time came to an end and that he's finally chained. He took us to the edge of the abys, which some politicians [and "fanatics"] are reluctant to turn away from.
Peace.
Peace.
# posted by : 3:36 AM, January 31, 2008
: 3:36 AM, January 31, 2008
One of my colleagues sent a lengthy email to that Daily Mirror guy.... he is yet to recieve a reply. lol
# posted by : 6:05 AM, January 31, 2008
: 6:05 AM, January 31, 2008
Ve, as I said, whatever faith you choose to believe in is your own choice. You've obviously found your answers, personally, I'm still looking for some of mine.
If the American medical association is to be believed (and I have read lots of research to back up their findings) and psychologically only 2% of people have inherently sociopathic tendancies then being kind to everyone in a democratic society will work for the most part, ie the other 98%. The problem is in setting rules and boundaries - just as in dealing with young children - that let everyone know what is socially acceptable. If you set boundaries then you have to enforce those boundaries when they are broken otherwise they are meaningless.
There are lots of cliches you can quote (spare the rod, spoil the child or give an inch take a mile etc...) the thing with cliches and stereotypes is they are for the most part true.
Certainly in the UK, crime 150 years ago was at a minimal fraction of what it is today, partly because of socially accepted norms of punishment and social responsibility, partly because of the large numbers of firearms held by citizens. The reason we are in the situation we are now is over the last 40-50 years certain sections of the government moved actively away from punishment and tried to rehabilitate people based on the belief that it was more civilised to do so.
The problem with that is the people who make up the rules for our society don't actually live or take part in communities that will be subject to it. They have tried to fashion the law so that if one of them were to find themselves in court or prison they would like to be treated in such a manner. It has obviously failed miserably as the vast majority of people who commit crime and subject others to the terror and trauma of being raped, attacked and burgled aren't the same people who enjoy a brandy and cigar in the old boys club after spending all day trading stocks.
I think we can agree to disagree on this point, I would love to live in the aspirational society where there is no need to a Police force of any kind, everyone is nice and kind to each other and that kindness is reciprocated. However, I know full well that I don't live in that world, along with the great majority of people in this country.
If the American medical association is to be believed (and I have read lots of research to back up their findings) and psychologically only 2% of people have inherently sociopathic tendancies then being kind to everyone in a democratic society will work for the most part, ie the other 98%. The problem is in setting rules and boundaries - just as in dealing with young children - that let everyone know what is socially acceptable. If you set boundaries then you have to enforce those boundaries when they are broken otherwise they are meaningless.
There are lots of cliches you can quote (spare the rod, spoil the child or give an inch take a mile etc...) the thing with cliches and stereotypes is they are for the most part true.
Certainly in the UK, crime 150 years ago was at a minimal fraction of what it is today, partly because of socially accepted norms of punishment and social responsibility, partly because of the large numbers of firearms held by citizens. The reason we are in the situation we are now is over the last 40-50 years certain sections of the government moved actively away from punishment and tried to rehabilitate people based on the belief that it was more civilised to do so.
The problem with that is the people who make up the rules for our society don't actually live or take part in communities that will be subject to it. They have tried to fashion the law so that if one of them were to find themselves in court or prison they would like to be treated in such a manner. It has obviously failed miserably as the vast majority of people who commit crime and subject others to the terror and trauma of being raped, attacked and burgled aren't the same people who enjoy a brandy and cigar in the old boys club after spending all day trading stocks.
I think we can agree to disagree on this point, I would love to live in the aspirational society where there is no need to a Police force of any kind, everyone is nice and kind to each other and that kindness is reciprocated. However, I know full well that I don't live in that world, along with the great majority of people in this country.
MetCountyMounty. I think you may have misinterpreted what I said and why I did so. I am not, nor was not, advocating that we do away with the police force. I was just getting my story out into the public domain via this very fine blog. IT IS A "RARE INSIGHT" which has been covered up by government.
They appear to have made a scapegoat out of the force, as they did to myself, which is NOT acceptable. Government have appeared to have UNDERMINED the role and authority of the police as much as they have done with the family and parents.
EVIL in my book.
A good example of that was on the news recently and proves that whilst undermining the police they have given TOO MUCH POWER to local authorities, particularly Social Services. They need to have their necks wound back in regarding "child protection".
They appear to be above the law, snatching babies from mothers at birth. Who the hell do they think they are? Innocent until PROVEN guilty is the law in this country. A child and its parents have a RIGHT to family life without state interferance. They appear to be working on assumption and theory to "prevent" child abuse, when in fact what THEY are doing IS child abuse and abuse of the mother. That was an act of CRUELTY by the state and it needs to be stopped.
Just because she was "in care" as a kid herself, because she was abused and has "self medicated" with weed or whatever [because the system IS useless]...does NOT automatically mean that she will harm her baby. Social services are the ones DOING the harm. They have a very negative effect rather than helpful and have caused far too much trouble within the health care system and in education.
Thank God for a judge with common sense and integrity, who ordered that the new born baby be returned to the mother.
They appear to have made a scapegoat out of the force, as they did to myself, which is NOT acceptable. Government have appeared to have UNDERMINED the role and authority of the police as much as they have done with the family and parents.
EVIL in my book.
A good example of that was on the news recently and proves that whilst undermining the police they have given TOO MUCH POWER to local authorities, particularly Social Services. They need to have their necks wound back in regarding "child protection".
They appear to be above the law, snatching babies from mothers at birth. Who the hell do they think they are? Innocent until PROVEN guilty is the law in this country. A child and its parents have a RIGHT to family life without state interferance. They appear to be working on assumption and theory to "prevent" child abuse, when in fact what THEY are doing IS child abuse and abuse of the mother. That was an act of CRUELTY by the state and it needs to be stopped.
Just because she was "in care" as a kid herself, because she was abused and has "self medicated" with weed or whatever [because the system IS useless]...does NOT automatically mean that she will harm her baby. Social services are the ones DOING the harm. They have a very negative effect rather than helpful and have caused far too much trouble within the health care system and in education.
Thank God for a judge with common sense and integrity, who ordered that the new born baby be returned to the mother.
# posted by : 12:31 AM, February 01, 2008
: 12:31 AM, February 01, 2008
P.S. MetCountyMounty.
The "Rare Insight" have have shared here is KNOWLEDGE, truth and fact. This comes from personal EXPERIENCE, not just "belief".
I am also well aware that there are people in this world who either find it hard to accept that there are spiritual forces which rule our lives, or choose to live in ignorance.
[Which actually isn't bliss]
Another "wise saying" is that "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink." Some people are open minded enough to want to learn and accept wisdom. Some are stubborn and blinkered and refuse to accept truth even when it hits them in the face.
The security services have long known that those "sensitive" people amongst us who are open to "spiritual messages", can be of help in times of trouble.
They were used in WW2.
All of this MAYHEM that we are experiencing now WAS foretold over 50 years ago. And documented.
Including that our children would be in crisis because of the mess that politicians have made. They would like to make even more chaos, given half the chance.
However, coming down heavy on "everyone" because of the bad behaviour of a minority is not how things should be run. Yes, punish those who hurt others, but treat the innocent with decency and respect. And that also includes survivors of sexual abuse who have been classed as "mental cases" by the govt and its patronising "agencies".
That in itself IS further abuse, especially when an "authority" threatens "section 136" against a victim, to SILENCE them.
It's ALL about power and control, and WHO has it, and whether it is used fairly, wisely and carefully.
The "Rare Insight" have have shared here is KNOWLEDGE, truth and fact. This comes from personal EXPERIENCE, not just "belief".
I am also well aware that there are people in this world who either find it hard to accept that there are spiritual forces which rule our lives, or choose to live in ignorance.
[Which actually isn't bliss]
Another "wise saying" is that "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink." Some people are open minded enough to want to learn and accept wisdom. Some are stubborn and blinkered and refuse to accept truth even when it hits them in the face.
The security services have long known that those "sensitive" people amongst us who are open to "spiritual messages", can be of help in times of trouble.
They were used in WW2.
All of this MAYHEM that we are experiencing now WAS foretold over 50 years ago. And documented.
Including that our children would be in crisis because of the mess that politicians have made. They would like to make even more chaos, given half the chance.
However, coming down heavy on "everyone" because of the bad behaviour of a minority is not how things should be run. Yes, punish those who hurt others, but treat the innocent with decency and respect. And that also includes survivors of sexual abuse who have been classed as "mental cases" by the govt and its patronising "agencies".
That in itself IS further abuse, especially when an "authority" threatens "section 136" against a victim, to SILENCE them.
It's ALL about power and control, and WHO has it, and whether it is used fairly, wisely and carefully.
# posted by : 2:26 AM, February 01, 2008
: 2:26 AM, February 01, 2008
metcounty/mounty got it right.
Walk tall and carry a big stick, but be allowed to use it.
With one hand behind your back it is going to be a hard job.
I have great faith in the UK police on the ground. Some of those at the top though need to speak to the Home Secretary and the judiciary and show some intestinal fortitude - guts! when softly, softly does not work.
We are heading for hell and no-go areas.
Walk tall and carry a big stick, but be allowed to use it.
With one hand behind your back it is going to be a hard job.
I have great faith in the UK police on the ground. Some of those at the top though need to speak to the Home Secretary and the judiciary and show some intestinal fortitude - guts! when softly, softly does not work.
We are heading for hell and no-go areas.
# posted by : 3:22 PM, February 01, 2008
: 3:22 PM, February 01, 2008
For all those who don't fancy "hell" and those brave front line cops who have to go into the nearly "no go areas". Get a little extra "unseen help" to keep you safe. Check out www.angeltherapy.com also,
www.circleraphael.co.uk
www.circleraphael.co.uk
# posted by : 11:00 PM, February 01, 2008
: 11:00 PM, February 01, 2008
ichabod wrote ... We are heading for hell and no-go areas. ...
The British Army is already planning for this. Their
Development Concepts and Doctrine Centre (DCDC)
have plans for widespread strife and civil disorder. It is written in Newspeak but still worth a look.
The British Army is already planning for this. Their
Development Concepts and Doctrine Centre (DCDC)
have plans for widespread strife and civil disorder. It is written in Newspeak but still worth a look.
# posted by : 10:06 AM, February 02, 2008
: 10:06 AM, February 02, 2008
Say what you will of the rights and wrongs of the idea of heavy handed police officers and kids being given a clip round the ear, but we all know of individual officers who are not known for their softness towards the groups of thugs outside off licenses- not kids as some people call them, because these lads are generally late teens and know perfectly well what they are doing.
When one of these officers shows up on a street corner these young thugs vanish, the reason why?- fear of the consequences of annoying said officers. Who would you rather have walking your street?- them or a CSO who could 'liase' with the youth and maybe ask them nicely to quiet down, i know who i'd pick.
When one of these officers shows up on a street corner these young thugs vanish, the reason why?- fear of the consequences of annoying said officers. Who would you rather have walking your street?- them or a CSO who could 'liase' with the youth and maybe ask them nicely to quiet down, i know who i'd pick.
Considering that Social Services seem to think that they can do what the hell they like regarding other people's kids, and they act like the Gestapo; Clearly, as they are a law unto themselves and like to kidnap new born babies from innocent mothers...Well just get the SS Gestapo out on the streets to deal with the feral youth. They will no doubt sort the problem out in no time at all, by abducting these "troubled youths" into "care". Surely there MUST be "child protection issues" here?
The World Health Organisation classes people UP TO AGE 20 years old as a "child", in terms of health and what can harm that "child". Alcohol is doing a great deal of harm to those youths who drink it. And as this IS a "social problem", who better to sort it out than the Social Services Gestapo. Perhaps then they might leave new born babies and their mothers alone.
The World Health Organisation classes people UP TO AGE 20 years old as a "child", in terms of health and what can harm that "child". Alcohol is doing a great deal of harm to those youths who drink it. And as this IS a "social problem", who better to sort it out than the Social Services Gestapo. Perhaps then they might leave new born babies and their mothers alone.
# posted by : 2:15 AM, February 03, 2008
: 2:15 AM, February 03, 2008
Is any of this Illegal, Thin air Credit, 9/11, 7/7 etc etc Caution 2hr Web Documentary, Put the Kettle on. Please pass on.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
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# posted by : 3:42 PM, February 05, 2008
: 3:42 PM, February 05, 2008
