The Policeman's Blog

"appears to be cooperating" .... yeah right !
 

Yikes about referring to the Edmonton Sun as the local paper. The Sun is the local tabloid paper. The Edmonton Journal, although occasionally sensationalist, is a much more balanced daily.
 

I wonder how you say "don't taze me bro" in Polish?
 

4 cops, none of whom make any attempt to talk to the guy, get a translator, find out what's wrong. He's obviously unarmed, and upset, and yet they still feel they need 4 armed and armoured cops with a taser to bring him down. Hells teeth - makes you wonder what they do to shoplifters - a SWAT team and snipers?

This is a ridiculous level of overkill, by a gang of thugs who were clearly in no personal danger. Some knife-wielding crackhead screaming "I'm going to kill me a pig!" - yeah, sure, taser the creep, but this guy did nothing wrong, and certainly nothing to deserve tasering.
 

4 cops, none of whom make any attempt to talk to the guy, get a translator, find out what's wrong. He's obviously unarmed, and upset, and yet they still feel they need 4 armed and armoured cops with a taser to bring him down. Hells teeth - makes you wonder what they do to shoplifters - a SWAT team and snipers?

This is a ridiculous level of overkill, by a gang of thugs who were clearly in no personal danger. Some knife-wielding crackhead screaming "I'm going to kill me a pig!" - yeah, sure, taser the creep, but this guy did nothing wrong, and certainly nothing to deserve tasering

As I know it criminal damage had occured.

How is he obviously unmarmed?

Do you have xray vision?

Should the people who have to deal with him be exposed to an unacceptable risk?
 

as a serving officer in the uk i have to say that although apparently this guy was "kicking off" for over an hour,in the video shown i didn't see anything that would phase me in dealing with the situation alone and with some of the natural resources i have to hand,i.e my mouth and body language.
having said that i would welcome tazer for the times it does go pear shaped, i am alone,the back up from the 4 or 5 officers who paraded with me isn't available because they are tied up with some of the 125000 people on the sub division who found it necessary to call us.
a stick and some spray that does not work on a percentage of people and especialy those highly intoxicated or on drugs does not fill me with overwhelming confidence.
having said that,as always hindsight is normaly flawless especialy to those who can police 9-5 behind a desk.
 

Had to chuckle at (a) the newsreader interviewing a journalist and (b) the newsreader sympathising with how hard a story it was for the journalist to report.

But a guy who has been throwing computers and furniture around is going to leave in handcuffs, and the only question is how they are put on. Whether he's frightened and confused, or angry and drunk, he is still a threat to those around him.

I was fortunate in that I saw on the news clip that the man was confused, frustrated and spoke no English.

The police, confined by the limits of time and space, wouldn't have seen that news clip, so were probably responding to a call about a crazy person trashing a waiting area. And guess what they found?
 

Phew, can't say that I'd have tasered him. I have dealt with motorists more pissed than that without resorting to any form of physical force at all :|
 

Matt,if we believed every report given over the radio,normaly taken by a civilian then god help us and you.perhaps 5% are accurate to the actual circumstances.
 

Nobody seems to have mentioned that this guy actually *DIED*. Regardless of whether that was by an MP5 or a tazer, the guy's still dead.

I can't see him thinking oooh, I'm so much luckier to die by taser than by MP5 at Heathrow.

At least being shot would have been a quicker death!
 

"Matt,if we believed every report given over the radio,normaly taken by a civilian then god help us and you.perhaps 5% are accurate to the actual circumstances."

Sure, but it isn't a big stretch to think the RCMP have some sort of relationship with the airport security people, perhaps with CCTV, too. I'm speculating, of course, but a call under such circumstances is surely different from the average 999 call.
 

It was a killing by police - or have you some spin on this.
 

Dear Sir / Madam
I am writing to inform you of a New Defence and Security Organisation, The UK National Defence Association recently established in the Uk and headed by Senior Members of the Armed Forces, the aim of said Organisation is to Lobby for Better funding for our Armed Services so that they may better be able to Protect this country and Its People.
Would you be willing to Link to this Organisations website (details Below) and would you be willing to forward the Link on to any / all of your contacts.
Membership is Open to ALL Uk Citizens, concerned about matters of security.
Thank you
Founding Paper.
http://www.uknda.org/my_documents/my_files/NDA-FOUNDING-PAPER.pdf
UKNDA Chairmans Column
http://www.uknda.org/chairmans_column/c-12.html
Home Page
http://www.uknda.org/
 

While I understand that these situations can be complicated I feel the RCMP guys screwed the pooch on this one. 24 seconds is not enough time to attempt verbal efforts to calm the situation(which had already started to become viable in the first place by the time they arrived).

The video gives me the impression that these guys had no desire to put in any effort towards the problem, it was walk in and zap the guy. End of story and a sad one at that.
 

To the tune of 'Anything You can Do' by Irving Berlin - from the appropriately entitled 'Annie get Your Gun'

RCMP Warren Elliott:
"Anyone you can kill we can kill better. We can kill a foreign national better than you"

Met Police Ian Blair:
"My force uses headshots. I won't resign. I won't resign I bet that you do"

Elliott:
"No I won't"
Blair:
"Yes you will"
"No I won't"
etc, etc

Scene ends with a large shoot out between RCMP and met Police S019.
 

At least this guy was conscious, unlike the diabetic in Leeds who was actually in a coma when the nice police officers tasered him several times.

I suspect the simplest solution would be not to keep people waiting for ten hours with no explanation.
 

hate to say it, but I think four coppers rushing him would have been a better idea. I am a serving officer in the UK and I have heard from several different places that we will have tazer on response some time next year (Officers next door to me in Torquay have it already, 2 of em per shift). Having seen this I'm not sure I want it!
I imagine that the guys who turned up at the airport were thinking "WHY SHOULD I RISK GETTING ALL BRUISED AND SCRATCHED WHEN I CAN JUST ZAP HIM, HE'LL BE FINE AFTERWARDS"
This is the problem with Tazer, while it is billed as 'non-lethal' it can be lethal in a way CS and cuffs rarely are (though it must be said they can be too).
I joined the job to catch crooks. I never want to risk killing anyone who isn't trying to kill me (or others)!
I feel for the families of everyone involved. This was not appropriate use of taser, but this is what is going to happen if they are issues to us!
"there but for the grace of god go us all"
D&C Response
 

For goodness sake, this poor man died after his tazering.

I think your comments are in exremely bad taste. I know you are a cynical bastard at the best of times but this is over the top.
 

I think the Tazer was used far too fast. I've often had to arrest males presenting considerably more threat than this guy. It's been done without CS or baton.

Try and calm him down. If that failed and arrest was required it would have been hands on. No Taser no CS.
 

Sorry folks, but I will wait for the results of the autopsy and the full RCMP investigation to be complete, before opining. Police officers ( or anyone for that matter) should never be judged on newspaper or television news stories. Had I been judged on media accounts over the years, my career would not have continued over thirty years.
 

"
How is he obviously unmarmed? [sic]

Do you have xray vision?"

Airports have X-ray vision, and presumably he was unarmed when he got on and off the plane. Do Canuckistani airports have a rack of weapons in the Customs area for the convenience of mentalists who want to go on a rampage?

How about option e) Point tazer/gun/CS/alsatian at jabbering Furriner, then wait and see if he wants to kick off or calm down? I know that they used to be quite big on electrical torture in Poland, so presumably he'd recognise a tazer as a device for inflicting such severe pain and shock that the target will choose to stop doing anything uppity like fighting back or breathing.

He'd already been there 10 hours; what was the big rush to fry him? It appears on the face of it that a man died because a Mountie couldn't be arsed to wait a minute. Do you have quotas in Canuckistan as well?
 

Hm, not sure I accept the excuse of "airport security". Sure, he could have been armed with something he picked up on or after leaving the plane. He DID probably require four cops to control him - the more the better for everyone's sake. But if airport security ie bombs had been in their minds at all, a tazer is surely the LAST thing you'd go for! That said, these guys probably never imagined the tazer would kill him, and for all we know he had been working himself up into a heart attack for the ten hours he had been waiting. You can clearly see him sweating and breathing heavily before they even arrive, so who knows?
 

First off, from the look of it, the RCMP did over react (and kneeling on the guy's neck after probably didn't help either). Should they be investigated? Definitely.

Funny, though, that there wasn't the same uproar when an RCMP was killed a few weeks earlier by a drunk holding a child who walked up to the cop car and shot him (and if there had been back up, there probably would have been two dead Mounties).

Policing is a dangerous job and judgement calls have to be made that are life and death, sometimes the cops, sometimes the suspects. For that reason alone, tasers need to remain an option.

Chinook
 

As someone who's always getting 'hassle' from police at airports. It goes with being a plane spotter. I'm glad the British Police haven't used a taser on me... well not yet!

Did they check whether he had a TAESS card???
 

Sorry guys...on this occasion, by NOT bothering to familiarise themselves with the situation RCMP fucked up big time...
 

Much that I support the fuzz where possible (cos I am one) it does look a bit hurried in the use of Taser, though not entirely unreasonable without the benefit of hindsight, which none of the officers had there. Having said that, if it was in the UK there would be a queue of promotion-hungry senior officers offering to string up the cops involved, and a herd of IPCC ba*tards giving their 'balanced' conclusions within minutes. On the other hand, kick off like that in Poland and see what happens....you'd be filled full of lead and just put out by the bins. I doubt it would make the news at all.
 

I can't see anything on the video which warranted a Tasering (if such a term exists). Do you not have Languageline in Canada?. I am nearing retirement having joined at 21yrs of age (work it out) and I reckon I could have sorted that man out on my own, at my age. He was totally complient when told to put the computer down and I failed to see one confrontational move from him, on the film, before he went down, presumably on the end of a Taser. I doubt the Taser killed him as much as heart failure or whatever but this event can only serve to harm our cause for wanting more powerful methods of protection especially when this apparent overreaction has been perpetrated by, arguably, the straightest law enforcers on the planet.
Q. How do you get 150 Canadians out of a swimming pool quickly?

A. Shout, 'Everyone, get out of the pool as soon as possible'

I've seen more difficult customers on Watchdog and I think we may have got it wrong this time.

Greeny
 

It's sad all round. I am, however, encouraged by the reaction of the Canadian media. It says something about their society. Comparing it with how this incident would have been reported had it occurred in the USA. I'm for Canada.
 

Regardless of whether the individual was a confused foreign national or a lagered-up member of the indigenous population, hurling Microsoft's finest around in a security-heightened area such as an international airport - especially when it doesn't belong to you - is going to draw attention to the local branch of law enforcement. Their reaction merely depends on the particular part of the planet you happen to be in at the time.
The chap would've known where his histrionics would've got him in his native country, so why did he decide to kick off in Canada?
Silly person.
 

'The only good pole is a "D" pole.'
Not the nine o'clock news, 1982.

It's piss-poor that the first option appeared to be tazering. Have these officers never heard of the conflict resolution model? I have. Not sure what it is exactly, but I've heard of it.
And I would suggest 4 to 1 are quite good odds.
This is the way things are going here too; PC Munchkin when faced with a large drunken bloke will just tazer them, and (regretably)kill some of them, just to preserve their "personal safety".
 

"He got off lightly compared to if he'd done this at Heathrow or Glasgow in the current climate..."

That has to be a big piece of codswallop. Are you suggesting that that would have been considered "terrorism related" and he would have been shot? Bollocks. In the UK he probably would have been taken down, handcuffed and transported to custody to await a translator to unravel what was going on. IMO.
 

I have to agree with the above. There are 6 very large, burley officers there against a rather pudgy middleaged polish guy.
If the police officer was on his/her own and then it can be justififed.. aka the conflict resolution model.
Mind you if a female police had been there im sure the problem would have been quickly sorted out by the sensible use of language line. Not testerone fuelled TAsaring heroics.
 

Anon 1028 24/11/07. What was that comment about the female police all about? I have 10plus years service (never indoors)and have yet to see this mythical use of female powers of communication to calm deranged people down. Do not take this as a critiscism of female officers I am merely stating what I have seen in my own operational experience. Cops are all in the same boat when it comes to dealing with nutters ie people who in the current climate will start smashing up an airport! i have worked with a number of cops of both sexes who could start a fight in an empty house! I think that as we move to a situation in this country where patrol/response/core group officers are more or less split 50-50 male and female that we will see the use of officer safety equipment to effect a greater proportion of arrests. Simply because the days of 2 large guys responding to an incident are coming to an end.It is now more likely to be 2 relatively smaller female officers trying to do the same thankless task of refereeing drunken disputes between the crime committing classes. Again not a critiscism just fact.
I shudder to think what the Uk media/human rights industry will make when inevitably somebody dies on video in a similar situation here.
Having said all that I think (from the limited amount I know about it) that the tazer is a fantastic bit of kit. Easily the biggest improvement in officer safety since the introduction of the kwik/speed rigid cuffs.
Getting back to the topic under discussion I wonder what the text of the call that the cops received was " Man speaking in foreign language wrecking airport etc etc.."

Stay safe
 

I think the above comment is whats known as bite... good and proper!!
 

Having just read on the MPS intranet that they are extending trials with taser I'm sure its on its way. It did amuse me though that they're giving it to TSG (of all people!) so we might not get them - too many officers getting tased in their own carrier!!

If anyone reading this is in the met they'll know what I mean!
 

Many coppers (not all) are just hot headed bullies. Its a pervading sub culture that you should just grab and ask questions later. Then there's the ones who are just big mouthed 'small men' who couldn't fight there way out of a wet paper bag. Darn, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

JOHN CHEESE
 

I've long been an advocate of Taser (used properly) on my Blog. This one appears to be a bit messy.
The thing to remember is, none of us know this blokes consition prior to the incident, but you can clearly work out he's been building up his blood pressure for about 10 or so hours... he was a medical time bomb. On face value, I think taser would have been a long way down the options list but who can make someone else's mind up? (except my missus).

I'd bet a small part of my meagre wage that the cause of death won't be down to the taser, though I can't imagine it helping, but more the Positional Asphixia of a big angry panicked guy being handcuffed to the rear, lay on his chest and sat on. This sends the body into shut down mode as it tries to send blood to vital organs. The officers were way to slow to recognise this, if they even noticed...

Sad and tragic - any death is tragic, this one more so because it was totally unavoidable with a basic grasp of policing skills... But we wern't there so its speculation... they called as they saw it... and appear to have cocked it right up!

Taser is on trial here, I carry it every day... not good for what was a bright start to a safe and effective piece of safety kit!
 

The problem is, the victim didn't have any of the choices you outline.

He was killed.
How sad...
...for policing.

Just like in London.

Police are now servants of the State, just like in the totalitarian countries.

Mike
 

Satisfactory ending, no-one injured.
 

Why didn't they just offer him a cup of tea and a sit down?
 

Mike
Victim choice
Do
What the f**k you are told
and live
Simple
Middle Class backlash is on the way.
 

"Funny, though, that there wasn't the same uproar when an RCMP was killed a few weeks earlier by a drunk".

Not at all funny - perfectly normal. The drunk was a criminal. It is well understood that criminals commit crimes, including sometimes murder. The RCMP man was doing his job - and all credit to him - and the drunk who killed him presumably committed murder. What sort of outcry do you want about that? Are you going to start a campaign against crime? The RCMP already have one going.

The case of cops killing a civilian who has not committed any serious crime is entirely different. The cops represent the government, and are employed by the taxpayers. They have a duty to uphold the law, not to behave like criminals themselves.
 

"Police are now servants of the State, just like in the totalitarian countries."

Nonsense.

In what totalitarian state would the prime minister be questioned during a criminal enquiry and several of his close associates be arrested/detained and questioned under caution.
 

Is every one responding to what actually happened, whilst not fully aware of the full facts. Or are we reacting to the media report, which will have their particular spin/politics attached (please allow me this one small prejudice). Surely those serving officers amongst the posters, must recognise the pattern of media outcry then silence when the full facts come to light. I personally will reserve judgement until the officers can explain themselves.
There does seem to be an assumption that the officers thought as one, and were in total agreement regarding the use of taser. Three of the group may feel that it was used too soon, but once used, you have to deal with the situation as presented. I don't know I was not there.
 

Another fine example of Media based incitement to arm-chair generalise over something the majority of the public have no idea about.

Short Caution, have to agree with you completely. The full facts need to be presented in a sterile environment and all parties called to account. This type of video is a snap shot of the incident and simply breeds dangerous assumptions from those mentioned above. The facts of the matter will come out in subsequent investigations.

As a serving cop in Northern Ireland we're no strangers to being shot, being shot at and unfortunately shooting people also.
We have the most open, accountable and robust Policing system in the world. We must remember the media are there to make money, not investigate the truth.

All too often the hard facts of an incident are overlooked by the media, simply because they lack scandal. Instead we allow the reporters to stir the pot and leave once the story in maxed out.
 

As usual the media have hyped up a situation without giving the full facts. Having scanned the posts I do not think anyone writing here is in possession of all the facts either and as such should reserve judgement. Only a full open enquiry will establish if the officers can or can not justify their use of force in this situation. The one thing I will say on this is that people just need to bear in mind that hindsight is a wonderful thing for those who are not placed into circumstances which require a split second decision.

On a related issue I am concerned about the number of posts which seem to suggest that police officers should expect to put themselves at risk of assault by going ' hands on ' with violent people before resorting to asp, gas or Taser. The conflict resolution model is clear that after presence and communication have failed your next options is CS. Yes, it's painful, but it does not have a long lasting effects and no-one gets injured, unlike the risk of serious injury to both parties as soon as things get physical ( I'm sure we all know of cases where a single punch in a nightclub has resulted in death). Police Officers are entitle to defend themselves and others and can punch back or even strike first! Contrary to popular belief police officers are not martial arts experts and recieve very little and very mediocre training in hand to hand combat. If CS fails then expect to be hit with a metal bar, unless someone finally sees sense and issues taser ( again it might hurt but it wont kill you ). All too often I have been involved in arrests which have ended in the messy bundle on the floor with everyone trying to grab a bit and invariably someone getting injured. This looks bad, especially with CCTV everywhere. I for one now resort to CS, it looks more professional and is safer for all involved. Also, if it works, you can be sure they won't want another dose next time they come to be arrested. The public need to know that we are not superhuman ( although some think they might be!) we have families that we want to go home to and bills to pay, we cannot and should not be expected to risk serious injury or worse. The only people taking those risks should be those being violent and refusing to co-operate.
 

"In what totalitarian state would the prime minister be questioned during a criminal enquiry and several of his close associates be arrested/detained and questioned under caution."

...yet nothing has happened. I wonder who has been leaned on? Sorry, very cynical.
 

Anyone wondering why the male died should google "excited delerium", the US are very interested in it as Taser has yet to be the sole cause of someone dying.....ie no one has died from Taser alone. Unfortunately the behaviour displayed by those suffering from excited delerium is very similar to being on crystal meth, very calm and quiet one minute and ultra aggressive the next with unexplainable extraordinary strength. The bad news is if the subject goes very quiet having been tasered whilst suffering from it there is no way of resucitating them - hence death.

Video footage only ever captures what is happening at the time of recording, it hasn't displayed the behaviour of the man prior to RCMP turning up. As a serving UK police officer I'm stunned that the security officers appear to do jack all. The RCMP do appear to move straight to taser very swiftly but it's all too easy to judge something later when you have all the time in the world to criticize. Boys (and girls) in blue all over the world do a brilliant job and its about time the public either shut up or stand up and join us.


There rant over....
 

that was so mean like come on thats so stupid why they would not help him first god some people are so stupid sometimes
 

Wow, looks like we have ANOTHER example! (November 29, 2007
The FBI is investigating whether a policeman violated a pregnant woman's civil rights when he used a stun gun to subdue her, authorities in this Dayton suburb said Thursday.)
They tasered a pregnant women while she was at the POLICE STATION, surrounded by cops. Are you going to try to convince me they needed to taser this woman to subdue her? Jesus Christ! Just force her down and physically force the handcufs on! As a matter of fact the cop DID force her down. Put one handcuf on and then when she resisted the other cuff he tasered her in the neck!
You cops need to start using the physical skills you were taught in the academy and stop tasring everyone.
 

Boys (and girls) in blue all over the world do a brilliant job and its about time the public either shut up or stand up and join us.

Except you're not our 'boys in blue' anymore, you're trigger-happy kevlar-jacketed blackshirts.

I don't know about Northern Ireland (sorry Anonymous serving cop), but here in London we have a completely unaccountable police chief who awarded his men the power of summary execution on the basis of suspicion alone, without any parliamentary oversight, and then lied though his teeth after his men used these powers to murder an innocent man. If this wasn't bad enough he then smeared the innocent man's character and told Londoners he'd happily order his men to do the same again. Now, having received a vote of no confidence in his ability to do the job, he effectively tells the Greater London Authority to come and have a go if they think they're hard enough. Accountable? A state where the police can murder with impunity is a police state.

Until Ian Blair lied about what happened at Stockwell, I might just have been able to write it off as a very unfortunate case of manslaughter. Lying about it makes it murder. You ain't our 'boys in blue' anymore matey - policing by consent died in the UK with Jean Charles de Menezes.

Electrocution by Tazers is punishment without trial. Tazers will inevitably be used as a form of state coercion against awkward and/or uncooperative people by uniformed thugs. But I suppose they are preferable to seven dum-dum bullets in the head.

Enjoy your brave new world 'boys in blue'. Just remember that saying you were following orders is never an acceptable defence in a court of law.
 

What a pack of thugs you cops are. You'll taser anyone, anywhere- minors, pregnant women, innocent civilians in their own homes, drunk waitresses half your size... and still come up with some half- assed justification. I hope when the growing roll of post- tasering deaths eventually outweighs your donut- fueled waistlines you'll be stripped of these torture devices.
http://half-a-bubble.blogspot.com/
 

I for one am glad that all this is going on. The more we talk about it, and the more deaths happen becasue of tasers, the faster they will become outlawed. I GUARANTEE you that when the death toll gets high enough, the laws will change.
Also sooner or later the odds are that some famous persons relative will be taserd and killed. When that happens it will just be more gas on the fire. You cops wont have these tasrs much longer. So enjoy them while it lasts........
 

this video link might be of interest to you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueCA2P_INw8
 

There is lots of different story about RCMP and Police, we pay tax to have protection and security, but if you want you have to hire your own security.
i have my own story look at:
http://communityvictim.blogspot.com/
 

The video evidence vs the RCMP officer accounts are truly disturbing.

What would a video show in the shooting death/murder of young Ian Bush while in RCMP custody in Houston, BC(BC again) in 2005. Even the blood evidence was clear the shooting didn't happen the way the officer said. This one really stinks as well!!